Thursday, September 07, 2006

9/11 – one view from Poland

Most Poles feel that they have been dragged into someone else’s ‘war on terror’.

A Muslim asylum seeker in Warsaw was in an internet café browsing sites in Arabic. The manager of the café decided that this was suspicious behavior and called the cops. Minutes later anti-terrorist units dashed into the café and arrested the asylum seeker, who was innocently checking out a few web sites.

Four years ago two Pakistanis were arrested in Warsaw central station after police decided that the men were ‘acting suspiciously’. When police raided the flat the men were staying at they found a map of Warsaw with various government buildings with rings drawn in pencil around them. The police decided that the Pakistanis were obviously planning a terrorist attack.

It turned out that men were asylum seekers who had ringed the government addresses they had to visit as part of their applications for refugee status.

Such has been the irrational behavior of some Poles in the wake of September 11.

When the planes went into those buildings five years ago in what was really just a mindless display of barbaric nihilism, Poles were as shocked and awed as everyone else. The general feeling of horror was compounded by the fact that several Poles died in the attacks on the Twin Towers along with Americans, British...

But Poles also felt that this was essentially an attack on America, not Poland.

Since the Bush administration launched its ‘war on terror’, however, successive Polish governments have responded to calls for help and have sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bush has admitted in a speech today that there were indeed secret CIA prisons where terrorist suspects have been detained and been subjected to an "alternative set of procedures" to get information out of them. Last year the Washington Post alleged that one of these prisons where these ‘alternative sets of procedures’ (torture?) had been carried out was in Poland.

"In addition to the terrorists held at Guantanamo, a small number of suspected terrorist leaders and operatives captured during the war have been held and questioned outside the United States in a separate program operated by the Central Intelligence Agency," said Bush. (see full transcript of the Bush speech here).

As this blog has often pointed out, the evidence for one of these prisons being in Poland is weak, but the accusations have helped cement in peoples’ minds that Poland is up to its neck in America’s ‘war on terror’.

Warsaw has also been talking with Washington about anti-missile systems being placed in Poland to shoot down rockets fired by ‘rogue states’ such as Iran.

Polish governments eagerness to get involved in Bush’s war on abstract nouns has made Poles feel vulnerable, and caused internet café managers and Warsaw police officers to act in the irrational way that they have.

Successive opinion polls have shown that a majority here do not want their armed forces involved in the carnage of post-Saddam Iraq. They do not feel it is their war. They feel that their government’s involvement in the war on terror has made them a possible target for the jihadists.

What was five years ago a deep sympathy for the people of America has turned into a low level unease that Polish foreign policy has dragged Poles into a war that is not theirs to fight in the first place.


Polcham said...

Bush did NOT admit that there were secret prisons. A responsible journalist who was not intent on pushing his own agenda would have read the actual speech and reported just what he said and not merely read CNN headlines and act like a parrot with an agenda.

If you are really interested in what he said about the prisons, you can get information in the post "Misreporting The News" that you find at Polish News Roundup

beatroot said...

Polcham – cut the ‘responsible journo bit’ will ya?

I refer you to reports from the Los Angeles Times, Boston Globe, BBC, CNN, Washington Post...

That’s a lot of irresponsible journalists!

beatroot said...

The parrot has put a link to the full text of Bush's speech in the text as well a quote where he admits that prisons outside of the US run by the CIA exist or existed.

sonia said...


dictators propped up by the US (House of Saud, Egypt, etc)......

Those 'dictators' are angels compared to anti-American totalitarian tyrants in Syria, North Korea and Libya...


Bush did NOT admit that there were secret prisons


beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

Polcham’s comments are off the wall. Which I wouldn’t mind if he left out the name calling. Parrot? I hope he comes here and apologizes for making an arse of himself.


islamaphobia in the US and Europe is now just out of control.

There is also a growing anti-Semitism in many countries.

As for the fairy tale cover story of 9/11.

Oh, oh…do I feel a conspiracy theory coming on? Which one is it gonna be: Mosad did it? The US government did it so as to be able to bomb arabs? Real estate agents did it?

If you want nutty conspiracies then check out here,,,

Fact is more boring. Middle class muslim nihilists radicalized in the west did it. Period.

beatroot said...

.....I think its safe to say we don’t know who did it.

Of course we know who did it.

A better question would be: why has some of the crankier sections of the left started to get into pathetic conspiracy theories? That used to be the pastime of sado right wingers.

Jihadist nutters were responsible for this. But they are not the threat that many think they are. They cannot change our way of life. We have invaded other countries and bombed third world armies from 10,000 feet because we think they are a threat. They are not.

Instead of getting into weird conspiracy theories why don’t you start thinking about why the west is so morally and politically vacuous that a few infantile wankers can even contemplate that they can change the world by driving planes into tall buildings or blowing themselves up on public transport in London?

Stop gaining salvation and comfort from thinking that there are dark forces controlling our lives.

sonia said...


I think its safe to say we dont know who did it (...) It was used by the US govt. as an excuse to invade iraq

Your 'theory' makes no sense. If Osama didn't do it, why would the US government said that HE did ? Why wouldn't they find a better scapegoat, like Saddam himself. Your paranoia is oddly selective: you really think that a government capable of lying about 9/11 would admit that they didn't find nuclear weapons in Iraq ? It makes no sense!!! Lying one moment, but being honest another ? (After all, it would have been so simple to bury an old nuke near Basra and then claim that it was Saddam's...)

Besides, Osama admitted to 9/11 in one of his videos...

beatroot said...

After all, it would have been so simple to bury an old nuke near Basra and then claim that it was Saddam's...0


Why would the Whitehouse and Downing Street volunteer to look like a prize idiots? They thought there was WMD in Iraq. There wasn’t. Blair thought that Saddam was a real threat – he really did! .

He wasn’t.

They think they can liberate people by bombing and invading them.

And now they are starting to realize that they have completely screwed that up as well.

If dark forces are controlling our lives then they are obvious complete crap at controlling it.

Anonymous said...

Liberate people? C'mon. It's first and foremost about oil. The rest is bullshit propaganda.

But don't discount the threat of the jihadists, either. No, they won't completely change western policy but blowing up the WTC was no small act of devastation. And they did get US forces out of Saudi Arabia as a result which was one of their key objectives.

And oh yea, today al Jazeera (sp?) released video of the very tall skinny guy with some of the 9/11 guys.

Anonymous said...

"Bush’s war on abstract nouns"

It's not a war on abstract nouns. It's a fundamental clash of ideology with people who would gleefully kill every poster on this blog. The people who planned and conducted 9/11 believed they would change our way of life. And they duly did. Our world and way of life is now tearing itself apart with internal conflict over the 'war on terror'. Secret prisons - necessary or evil?Guantanamo - illegal abuse or required facility? Polish 'overreaction' - wise caution or vicious persecution? All difficult questions. British nationals blowing up other British nationals on the Tube, including fellow Muslims (and 3 Poles) - how did we get to this state of affairs? Ditto Madrid. Ditto Bali. An even tougher question.

But for an easy question, ask yourself this. Do you want to live in a world whose values are more like the USA/UK/Poland, or more like Iran/Syria/Somalia? In case you had forgotten, in the latter, beatroot's blog wouldn't exist, and he'd be in prison for sedition. And your freedom would be severely restricted - and not just by censorship of sonia's tits.

So maybe Poland's government is right to nail its colours so clearly to the mast. It is, I am afraid, a simple choice between a great and soulless evil (Usama's twisted Islamic extremism), and something which is far from perfect ('Western' liberal democracy, Bush and Blair). Welcome to the miserable choice we face. Let's hope our children don't have to make it too.

beatroot said...

And oh yea, today al Jazeera (sp?) released video of the very tall skinny guy with some of the 9/11 guys.

:-))That is the best summing of al-quaeda types I have ever read.

roman said...


"...but I simply dont buy the official version of 9/11..."

Please familiarize yourself with the concept of Occam's Razor. Simply stated; when two or more theories are presented, it is the one that is the least complicated and most simple that is the most likely to be true.

Also, why is it that anyone who has a different viewpoint from yours lives in a "cartoon world"?
With statements like "The entire clash of civilizations is just absurd....and pure manufactured PR." Manufactured PR? The West, in your opinion somehow was behind all these recent suicide attacks carried out by Islamofascist terrorists? If you believe this, it is you who are residing in a "cartoon world".

Anonymous said...

Steppx: For sure, the jihadists are fringe Islamists and are first and foremost anti-colonial and anti-occupation. Anybody who took time to read A/Q's fatwa issued before 9/11 realizes this. Posterboy's contention that their prime motivation is to forceably convert us all is truly comic book nonsense. They can't even keep their own kids immune from the onslaught of Western Culture. More Arabic/Muslim youth will move towards "modernism" than towards jihad no matter how screwed up US foreign militarism provokes a few to become admittedly very dangerous suicide bombers.

But cheese and crackers, what kind of evidence do you want that Stretch and the 9/11 Crew plotted and carried out the destruction of the WTC. It was Al Jazeera that released the footage, not Donny Rummy (please don't suggest Rummy planted it. At least come up with some alternative possibility that cannot be easily debunked.

Gustav said...

Forgive me for going off topic for a moment - But beatroot, I believe it was actually Human Rights Watch who claimed that Poland was one of the locations for the prisons. The Washington Post (the one with the source - HRW just had some flight logs), refused to name the countries.

BEING HAD said...

I was in New York on September 11th, I saw everything first hand. A few months later when I got screwed over by the Polish judicial system, May of 2002, the Polaks were hand in hand with the US and kissing their ass like there was candy in there trying to get into the EU. They were crowing like cocks that they were one of the few countries to back the US in their chase into Afghanistan after Osama Bin Ladin. Of course they let the US open prisons in Poland. Of course! Most of Europe was against that war at that time, though now, after a couple of bombs in Spain they seem to changed their tune. But if the poles are changing their song now it is because they have already gotten what they were prostituting themselves for. They are already on the busses to England, they have already sold out their country for a fistful of dollars; they don't need the US as an ally any more. I don't think Polaks are particularly racist except for anti-Semitism, nor are they genuinely nationalists; they are just scammers and hysterics- if there is a chance to make a scandal, they will do it and they don't care who they hurt in the process.

beatroot said...

Posterboy [!] said:

It is, I am afraid, a simple choice between a great and soulless evil….and ….beatroot's blog wouldn't exist, and he'd be in prison for sedition. if I lived in Syria, Iran or Somalia…

Don’t be silly. Firstly, you seem to be confusing Syria – a state which is politically from the old pan-Arabist secular ba’athist movement - and a religious, partial democratic state like Iran, and Somalia, a third world basket case failed state that has just been taken over by Taliban types.

But still, they are all full of crazy Muslims, eh?

And no, it isn’t s simple choice between good and evil – only the most clueless people see the world like that.

And how will is flying a plane into a building or a suicide bomber on a train going to close down the beatroot blog?

The nihilists are not capable of doing anything (in the west) but occasional horror and carnage. We are the ones closing down web sites (promoting terrorism apparently), not THEM, because they don’t have the power to close down anything.

Lucia Maria said...


I recommend you start reading more about just what is going on in the world. "Islamaphobia" has gotten to the point it is now, not because of some imagined phobia, but because the actions of Muslims no longer can be ignored. The Danish Cartoon Frenzy was the real wake up call for many in the West.

Here are some sites to get you started.

Western Resistance
Jihad Watch
Gates Of Vienna

And Prophet of Doom, the author of which went and interviewed terrorists after 9/11, and then based his book on extensive research of Islamic holy books.

The Islamic war against us is real. The President of Iran has recently called on all of the world to convert to Islam or else. This is a standard pre-attack warning mandated in the Qur'an.

Journalists have been very slow to identify various Muslim attacks around the world - like the Washington sniper and a guy in Canada who sent male students out of the room, then proceeded to massacre the female students. Those two incidents of a few years ago were never reported as Muslim nutters.

As for Poland hoping it's not her war - lastest people arrested in Germany for planning to blow up trains have shocked the Germans. They thought they were safe because of their opposition to the Iraq war.

beatroot said...

You are right Lucyna to point to Germany. There is a country not involved in the war in Iraq, so blaming the this terrorism (in the west) on that is a non starter (but the invasion of Iraq has everything to do with the terrorism in Iraq).

And neither was 9/11 about anything in particular. It’s MODERNITY they don’t like. Period.

And most of these type who do this sort of terrorist thing were radicalized in the WEST. Problem is: the West isn’t too keen on modernity either (re: environmentalism, ‘complimentary medicine’ on the UK national health!, anti-science, pro horoscopes. Anti human!

Enter nutty religious fanatics.

So something must be pretty crap or weak about western values that some rather go around with headscarfs in the middle of London (I have seen burkas on Oxford Street!) and a few would like to take an early bath with the virgins. It’s not that it is ‘this’ culture verses ‘that’ culture. It’s US in the west not having any values in common

I am very glad that the old conservative ways have gone in most places in the west, but we have not replaced them with anything much at all, except a mess.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, perhaps I should have explained myself better. Some caveats:

a. AQ are a tiny majority of the Muslim population, but are also unduly influential...

b. ...Partly because Western policy and actions over the last century have been so abysmally misjudged and damaging to moderate Islam that their narrative carries weight.

c. Buy my question (which nobody answered) remains - "Do you want to live in a world whose values are more like the USA/UK/Poland, or more like Iran/Syria/Somalia?"


1. My point about the beatroot blog was that it could not exist in the kind of world AQ envisage. AQ aren't big on freedom of speech.

2. I lumped Syria, Iran and Somalia together on purpose. All three variously support, shelter or permit AQ's presence. As you note, they are currently very different countries, and they are certainly not full of 'crazy Muslims'. But they will be if Usama gets his wish - one of AQ's aims being the reformation of the Islamic Caliphate that stretched from Spain to China.

3. It IS a choice between good and evil, and the choice is between accepting what AQ see as good/evil and what we see as good/evil. Alas, the two are diametrically opposed.

4. You said "The nihilists are not capable of doing anything (in the west) but occasional horror and carnage. We are the ones closing down web sites....not THEM, because they don’t have the power to close down anything." Bang on. THEY have made US change the way we live, and see the world, and deal with the Islamic World. That's a huge achievement by AQ, turning our own freedoms, media and methods to acheive. their aims. The fifth anniversary of 9/11, complete with films, debate, and this kind of blog discussion, is the best advertising AQ could possibly hope for. And once we turn oursleves in into bigoted, xeniophic, Islamophobic racists, do you think AQ will be more popular or less? Will their arguments carry more or less weight in the moderate Muslim world?


Suggest you read some Wahhabist literature. One of AQ's motivations is to forceably convert all of us to their way of thinking. This is why even other Muslims (eg the entire Shi'a population) are legitimate targets for them. Don't convert and you are not even human in their eyes.

Steppx: Please don't dismiss my post as cartoon thinking. I read yours and had a good think about it, as it made some valid points. Do me the service of reading my post next time, and try to see where I am coming from.

All: Please answer the question. Our imperfect world, or the world AQ would have us live in?

beatroot said...

Do you want to live in a world whose values are more like the USA/UK/Poland, or more like Iran/Syria/Somalia?"

Posterboy I did answer it. Of course I would rather live in the west. But THEY won’t change our way of life – because they can’t. WE might by the way we react to them.

I lumped Syria, Iran and Somalia together on purpose. All three variously support, shelter or permit AQ's presence.

No they don’t. Iran certainly has nothing to do with al-qaeda types. AQ are a sunni Wahhabi Muslim thing. Very different kettle of fish from Iranian shia. Muslim world is more complicated than you think.

Lucia Maria said...

Iran and AQ are in competition for leadership of the Umma. AQ want the caliphilate to be in Iraq, Iran on the other hand have been designing Teheran for the coming of the Mahdi.

I agree with posterboy on lumping in lumping Syria, Iran and Somalia together, in that while Iran may be competing for the leadership with AQ, AQ's actions in the West merge with Iran's aims.

Anonymous said...

Since AQ is very much the west's creation, they are certainly part and parcel of the imperfect world we inhabit. So you pose a false dichotomy, PB. And western militaristic adventurism in the Middle East continues to result in the enlistment of many more to the Jihadists' cause.

Lucia Maria said...

ignacy, how is AQ the west's creation? They seem to draw their inspiration directly from the Qur'an, and aspire back to some sort of 7th century ideal. The west seems to have completely underestimated and misunderstood them in Iraq and Afganistan to the point of allowing Islamic law as part of both constitutions. Are you saying this has been done on purpose?

Lucia Maria said...

Steppx, I do read history. You might want to reaquaint yourself with a number of historical events.

1) Two thirds of the Christian being invaded by Islam befor the first Crusade is launched.

2) Expansion of the Ottoman Empire to the point where Jan Sobiekski III had to come to besieged Vienna's aid with the Polish army.

3) Turkey is left over from the Ottoman Empire. Turned secular by Anturak in the 1920, who did it by brutally supressing Islam.

This is a very old war, Steppx.

michael farris said...

"how is AQ the west's creation?"

More like the west's unintended consequences. Very shortened simplified version:
The disfunctional empire known as the CCCP invades the 7th century hell-hole known as Afghanistan.
They meet resistance from the religious regressive mujihadeen (nb: same root as jihad; j-h-d).
The US sensing an opportunity to make the CCCP suffer heavily support the mujihadeen as do the Saudis, one Saudi with the initials OBL becomes particularly involved.
Ultimately the CCCP sort of gives up in Afganistan.
The mujihadeen victory was mostly due to the huge amount of outside help they received and internal Soviet politics. But being religious regressives who are stuck socially and mentally in the 7th century, the mujihadeen think their victory is due to the superiority of their religion and think "if we can take down the USSR, with Allah on our side why not the USA too?"

beatroot said...

From Afghanistan to Bosnia the west funded and encouraged these people. In the middle east they have encouraged them by invading places and destabilizing them.

We have also created a relativist and weak culture where a a few can get very alienated indeed and turn into super victim suicide bombers.

The west has created the conditions for this nihilism to flourish.

I also think we have massively exaggerated the threat to us in the west, however.

So, all in our, our creation.

Anonymous said...

Lucyna: This is a very old war, Steppx.

Personally, I think we should be kicking Cathar ass.

Lucia Maria said...

Beetroot, have you read It's the Demography, Stupid by Mark Steyn?

If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend it.

beatroot said...

I just read it, Lucyna. It says some silly things ad some sensible things.

The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birthrate to sustain it.

Guess which two countries have the lowest birth rate in te EU? First it’s Italy next is POLAND…the two supposedly most religious states in the EU.

Radical Islam is an opportunistic infection, like AIDS: It's not the HIV that kills you, it's the pneumonia you get when your body's too weak to fight it off….That's what the war's about: our lack of civilizational confidence..

That has some merit. Immigration is not the problem. I am for migration in principle. America is a national of immigrants but it had this ‘America’ idea that was the bridging culture between all the others.

The only difference [between the IRA and jihad] is that most terrorist wars are highly localized. We now have the first truly global terrorist insurgency because the Islamists view the whole world the way the IRA view the bogs of Fermanagh: They want it, and they've calculated that our entire civilization lacks the will to see them off.

IRA had a clearly defined political goals and objectives and a political party to articulate them. Jihadists just want to make some infantile point about themselves. They want to create terror for the sake of it.

Which is why I don’t think they are the threat that Steyn does. Occasional jihadist violence is just a nasty part of modern life in cities.

But we also have to be finding values we can all agree on. WE have to find the ‘bridging culture’.

For me that is humanism with values based on the Enlightenment.

Lucia Maria said...

Steppx, you want to know "where".

France and Sweden. Even Australia.

France used to a be a great place for
Muslim women, where they didn't have to wear the veil, where they could live as Westerners do. Over the years, those freedoms are being eliminated one by one as entire areas become Muslim dominated and a small number of fanatics somehow keep huge populations compliant.

There are no-go zones in France now for non-Muslims. Any non-Muslim women needing to go through these areas covers herself up so that she is not rape. And remember those riots where thousands of cars were set alight? Or that train where Muslim youths terrorised it for a couple of hours because the French police were too afraid to board it until enough reinforcements arrived?

And Malmo in Sweden is dominated by Muslims now as the natives leave and the remainder are subjected to attacks as a form of warfare against them.

There are places all over Europe now where European women are harrassed at best and raped at worst for not dressing properly in front of Muslim men.

In Australia, I myself was approached by a Muslim man at a train station in a Muslim dominated area and asked how much it would cost for me to come home with him. Luckily he didn't do any more than that, since the train stration was deserted. Australia has also had a number of vicious gang-rapes perpertated by Muslims against non-Muslim women. Here's an article on the Rise of Middle Eastern Crime in Australia where the police are too intimiated to go after Muslim gangs.

It's simple numbers, Steppx.

Just to recap those bald statistics: In 1970, the developed world had twice as big a share of the global population as the Muslim world: 30% to 15%. By 2000, they were the same: each had about 20%.

Big change in 30 years, don't ya think?

Do not dilute your presence

In 1980, the Islamic Council of Europe laid out their strategy for the future - and the fundamental rule was never dilute your presence. That is to say, do not integrate.

"Rather, concentrate Muslim presence in a particular area until you are a majority in that area, so that the institutions of the local community come to reflect Islamic structures. The education system will be Islamic, the shops will serve only halal food, there will be no advertisements showing naked or semi-naked women, and so on."

Anonymous said...

Beat: "Jihadists just want to make some infantile point about themselves. They want to create terror for the sake of it."

You give them too little credit. There is a defined goal and a defined ideology. And it's spreading rapidly into moderate Islam. I think it's wrong to call the act of 'martyrdom' infantile. Spraypainting walls and firebombing cars is infantile. Suicide bombing is not.

DNDYP: "In 1980, the Islamic Council of Europe laid out their strategy for the not integrate."

This is a fundamental problem in Western society. OUR inability to accept and integrate with moderate Islam, and THEIR refusal to integrate with us. A small example. The England cricket team has a Muslim player of Pakistani origin (Sajid Mahmood). He is barracked, heckled, abused and called a 'traitor to his country' by Pakistan's fans - the overwhelming majority of whom are British Muslims of Pakistani descent. They are not proud of his 'integration'. AQ's brand of Islam is at the ultra-radical end of a Salafist/Wahhabist perspective that finds increased acceptance in the Muslim world. It is not tolerant, accepting or integrating. And it needs to be fought on several levels. Cut off the head first (AQ), engage seriously with moderate Islam, effect real and sustainable political change in the Middle East, allow and encourage Islam to go through its own Enlightenment, then find and embrace that 'bridging culture'. We haven't yet acheived step one yet.

PS: Before I get accused of Islamophobia too, I lived for a decade in the Middle East. And (cliche notwithstanding), one of my best mates is a British Muslim of Pakistani descent.

beatroot said...

Step – I was agreeing and disagreeing with certain points of the article, not the article as a whole.

Steyn strays into right wing crank territory far too often (homophone, Europhobe…) but the bit about the west losing faith in itself is right. He doesn’t like multiculturalism, neither do I.


He is a conservative so he likes the things they were or could have been.

I am much more into looking at the future and emphasizing secular humanistic enlightenment values.

beatroot said...

Posterboy: I think it's wrong to call the act of 'martyrdom' infantile.

No, I’m right. If they are trying to make political points then why do they never even claim the violence they cause until weeks months afterwards? And why do they not give us a concrete program which is in the interests of a specific community?

I lived with IRA bombs popping off at regular intervals all the time I was growing up (my mum is from N. Ireland and London was frequently a target – terrorism was not invented on 9/11) we knew exactly who it was, why exactly they were doing it and who, if anyone we could engage with.

With this lot there is no clear political objectives. Look at the things bin Laden says: he changes his reasons each time he says something. He never mentioned Palestine/Israel thing for years. Saudi Arabia was what he used to go and on about.

Bin Laden takes an issue like Iraq or Palestine AFTER the western media or some on the left start claiming that is why ‘he’ did it.

Again, another aspect of how we have helped create al-Qaeda.

Anonymous said...

I was approached by a Cathar in a dark, dismal and depressingly dank bus station in Detroit late one dreary and damnable wet night... Damn those dratted Cathars to hell! They're animals!

Anonymous said...

I can actually agree with a lot of this, PB: "AQ's brand of Islam is at the ultra-radical end of a Salafist/Wahhabist perspective that finds increased acceptance in the Muslim world. It is not tolerant, accepting or integrating. And it needs to be fought on several levels. Cut off the head first (AQ), engage seriously with moderate Islam, effect real and sustainable political change in the Middle East, allow and encourage Islam to go through its own Enlightenment, then find and embrace that 'bridging culture'. We haven't yet acheived step one yet."

I question, however, the extent to which the ultra-whacky jihadist brand of Islam is being increasingly accepted throughout the world. That certainly is not the least bit true in Muslim communities in the US and I doubt that is the case in Europe either. Yes, there are an increasing number of Muslims getting drawn to it but that is largely because of western governments' repeated military adventurism and occupation of predominantly Muslim territory and the western governments' unquestioning support of Israel's military adventurism and occupation of predominantly Muslim territory...

Anonymous said...

Ignacy said: "I was approached by a Cathar in a dark, dismal and depressingly dank bus station in Detroit late one dreary and damnable wet night... Damn those dratted Cathars to hell! They're animals!"
Same thing happened to me in Peoria but it was a priest, not a Cathar.

beatroot said...

Steps is right about the Paris thing – that was about good old fashioned inequality and racism, not some protest against the decadent west.

Ignacy, al-qaeda might be Salafist/Wahhabist but that does not make it political. They don’t represent a specific community, are answerable to nobody as a result. And things like 9/11 are narcissistic ‘spectaculars’ that have symbolic value only. They are not political acts and therefore cannot threaten us in any real way.

michael farris said...

"I just worked on a film in Malmo -- and all you say is bullshit. malmo has a high crime rate because its a jumping off port for human trafficking (and none of the gangs are muslim run....mostly its albanian and Israeli, actually)"

Well most Albanians are traditionally at least nominally Muslim, but I get your point. Where did this 'Malmo being terrorized by Arabs' internet urban legend begin, anyway?

For the record, I think the existence of non-assimilating immigrants in western europe is a problem (partly due to western europe trying to pretend it wasn't an immigration destination for too long). But it's not a threat to everything the west stand for as hysterical internet hawks claim.

beatroot said...

Mike: the Malmo being over taken by muslim crazies thing comes from a spat between Step and Lucyna in a post about ELTON JOHN!

beatroot said...

The reason why folks like Pim Fortyn had a weird appeal was nothing to do with small size….

I was talking to someone from Radio Netherlands at a party last year. I was talking about Holland's history of ‘tolerance’ etc and she said that the Dutch were never tolerant.

What happened was that all the political class and the media thought talk about immigration and anything intolerant was not politically correct. There was a consensus of silence. But normal Dutch talked about these things all the time. So when some mullah in Rotterdam called gays ‘lower than pigs’ Fortyn spoke up and said the remark was un-Dutch and if people didn’t like liberal Dutch values then they should leave Holland.

The Dutch loved his honesty. Finally someone was talking about the things they were talking about. So the popularity of Fortyn was the cosey consensus among politicians and media – not size or assimulation.

michael farris said...

beat, no lucyna didn't originate it, it's been around a while, a couple of years at least, I've come across it on hysterical hawk sites before (along with refutations made by people who actually have been there).

I think it's a hysterical hawk talking point, I'm just not sure where it first originated.

Kind of on topic, I used to sometimes read around in the forums of a portal by and for norwegians of (mainly) pakistani ancestory (I think but I'm too lazy to look it up now) and there were religious regressives there too, but they were usually shouted down by more reasonable types.

michael farris said...

"she said that the Dutch were never tolerant"

I'm told there's a Dutch saying to the effect "The Dutch are so tolerant, you can't even talk about it."

beatroot said...

I had never heard it before, Mike, till I saw it here. But honestly, as I said earlier, nobody I know from Malmo had even bothered to mention this. So I don't think Swedish society is under mortal threat, just yet.

beatroot said...

The Dutch official tolerance tjing goes back 300 years. It's part of what stepxx would call the 'ruling ideology'. And it stored up loads of problems...

Anonymous said...

aQ is not political? What are they, then? A quilting club? Simply a prayer group? The destruction of the WTC was just symbolic? Not a threat? And what happened to the expanisive US military presence in Saudi Arabia soon after 9/11? True, they are not responsible to anyone but themselves and therein lay their danger even if their numbers as small albeit growing - thanks to Dummy Rummy,

Lucia Maria said...

Here we go: War Against the Swedes. And Beetroot, I'm surprised people you know don't talk about this - there seems to be a clampdown over here on seeing no evil, hearing no evil, speaking no evil. I suppose if you can't ignore it, it won't affect you.

Steppx, I'm a racist am I? You are a great one for the meaningless labels, since Muslims are not one race - they can be any race. And what's the bad thing about Muslims having democratic control of a country - are you serious? Muslims have democratic control in Malaysia and Indonesia, and both those countries are becoming increasingly dangerous for non-Muslims.

A sharia court in Malaysia declared a Hindu climber had secretly converted to Islam, resulting in his wife being unable to inherit his property, due to her being not Muslim. They can do that you know, declare someone who has died to have secretly converted to Islam.

Increasingly draconian Islamic laws to do with women covering up has lead to Bali threatening to seceed. East Timor was invaded Indonesia in the 70's and only just got it's independence at huge cost.

Here's the latest on what it's like for Christians living in Muslim dominated Aceh in Indonesia.

Oh, and West Africans can Muslim. Islam reached West Africa in the 8th century.

Lucia Maria said...

Oh for the ability to edit. Here is part of my first paragraph again:

... there seems to be a clampdown over here on seeing no evil, hearing no evil, speaking no evil. I suppose if you can ignore it, it won't affect you.

And my last paragraph:

...and West Africans can be Muslim.

Lucia Maria said...

Islam By Country

Total Population of West Africa : 268,997,245
Muslims: 133,994,675
%Muslim: 49.813%

michael farris said...

As fun as it is to debate you, Lucyna, our sources are just too different. You read something at Gates of Vienna and believe it, hook, line and sinker. I read it and think there's probably some vague connection with something that might be going on, that's not much a basic for a debate (unless it's about the reliability of your sources).

Why is it that cultural conservatives (not just you) have no real faith in the strength of families or western civilization?

I'm confident that the overwhelming majority of society will be heterosexual and form family units of some kind and that western civilization has no real competition (from the middle east at any rate).
Typical family structures 50 years from now might not be what we're used to now (just as the current norm, probably including Lucyna's family, would be alien to people from 1956) but humans are inherently a social, reproductively oriented species so we want to live together and have young'uns around underfoot. That's not going to change by making it easier for non-dangerous sexual minorities to order their family lives as they see fit. Facing reality and dealing with those who are different is usually easier than trying again and again and again to pound square pegs into round holes.

Islamic radicals are a sporadic, unpatterned threat like lightning and largely unrelated to underperforming immigrant groups with a grudge (a similar hit and miss threat of less than world shaking proportions). And if either (or both groups) ever get their supposed wish for a conflict of civilizations (which I doubt) they won't know what hit 'em.

You seem to think however that if people aren't tricked and coerced into heterosexual marriage and child raising they'd never do it and that western civilization is a delicate souffle that'll collapse at the first loud noise.

Lucia Maria said...

Michael Farris,

You read something at Gates of Vienna and believe it, hook, line and sinker.

You are referring to Fjordman, are you?

Two can play this game.

You seem to think that the extent of my knowledge in this subject is limited to the links I've given above.

It is impossible to explain the entirety of my position in these comment boxes.

You want to continue being an ostrich, despite the evidence (and there is a lot - demographics, constant new reports from all parts of the world), be my guest.

At least you can be confident in the knowledge that even if you don't know or don't want to know what's going on, other people will take up the slack.

And let's hope that's enough.

I'll leave you with a story on the Islamic invasion of NW Africa and Dahlia's resistance. When the men weren't brave enough.

Anonymous said...

Curious... anybody have any idea as to a number of how many Muslims are willing and ready to become suicide bombers?

As big a number as the US military in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.?

And what kind of weaponry do they have, comparatively?

Lucia Maria said...

Apparently Iran has 40,000 suicide bombers.

They could be bluffing, of course.

Anonymous said...

Youse fascist liberals youse!

michael farris said...

Why I am a fascist (according to Lucyna):

I think people should have legal protection in ordering their family lives as they see fit.

I think people should be free to practice their religion to the extent that it doesn't impinge on other people's rights.

I'm not afraid of Muslims (I personally like a rather large majority of Muslims I've met though though as a religion Islam isn't my thing at all).

I think George W. Bush's 'war or terror' was/is a cyncial ploy to garner fear votes and if you pay attention to his actions and policies it's clear he doesn't believe there's a 'war on terror' either.

I'm sure there's more, but I've gotta go now, so many traditional values to undermine, so little time...

Lucia Maria said...

Ah yes, the Why Liberals are Fascists article by Dr. Jack Wheeler, creator of the very successful Reagan Doctrine.

Truth hurts.

beatroot said...

Lucyna - are there many like you in New Zealand?

Lucia Maria said...

Like me in what way, Beetroot?

beatroot said...

Do a lot of people agree with the type of things you say?

Lucia Maria said...

It varies on what I say as to the numbers of people that agree. On some things, many people agree. On others, few people agree.

NZ is getting more conservative, though. And more people are noticing political correctness and rebelling against it.

beatroot said...

Can you give me an example of how NZ is getting more conservative?

Lucia Maria said...

Here's a news release on a very recent survey.

A Consumer and Lifestyles Study, released today by the University’s Consumer Research Group in the Department of Marketing, reveals New Zealanders are becoming more traditional in their viewpoints, with emphasis on marriage, the family unit, showing respect to one’s elders and attaining social recognition.

There's more detail in the article.

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