Sunday, July 15, 2007

Foxy Lepper and Giertych to form new party


It’s going to be called LiS – ‘lis’ is Polish for fox.

Stop sniggering…it’s true – Andrzej Lepper’s Samoobrona (Self defense) party and Roman Giertych’s Christian nationalist Liga Polskich Rodzin (League of Polish Families) will unite. Take the first letter of Samoobrona and the first letter from Liga, add an ‘i’ (and) and you get LiS.

When asked which of them would be the leader of LiS, Lepper said that it would probably be a joint leadership: “Me - balanced, calm and serious. Vice premier Giertych - eloquent, intelligent, witty.”

One possible election slogan for the new LiS party, says Lepper, could be: ‘Strong as a lion, cunning as a fox’.

Is this man on drugs?

But why and how, I hear you cry, would an ex-Stalinist like Lepper (previously a member of the old Polish communist party) and an uber-Catholic nationalist like Giertych get together and form a party? What have they in common, ideologically?

Well, not much, really. Policy-wise though, they both want to de-privatize much of what was sold off after 1989. They both want to limit foreign influence and renegotiate Poland’s membership of the EU. But that’s just about it.

What they have most in common, of course, is that both their parties have little support left in the country after a year and a half in the coalition government with PiS, and if an election was held now they would be left with no members of parliament at all.

Hence the emergence of LiS – the cunning fox. Lepper thinks that if they stand together they could get, ‘around 17 percent of the vote…’.

I think that is more than wishful thinking. I think voters will see it for what it is: the naked opportunism of two desperate men. LPR voters, what’s left of them, won’t stomach voting for Lepper, who has just been thrown out of government on suspicion of being involved in a corrupt land deal. And there are lots of other Christian nationalists to vote for that are outside Giertych’s party – like Marek Jurek’s PiS splinter group, for instance.

This unbelievable new alliance – LiS – looks less like a cunning fox, and more like a dumb, mangy old mongrel.

477 comments:

1 – 200 of 477   Newer›   Newest»
BEING HAD said...

I am not really sure that this is relevant, but I have always liked Lepper. The reason for this is that exactly during the time that I was having to sit through Poland's little human right's betrayal with me over punching some off duty cop who tried to hit me with his car, Andrej Lepper got into a fistfight with another MP during a parliamentary debate. During my trial the judge wanted me to know that punching a man in the mouth, though technically not even illegal, was some kind of sub-human act regardless of provocation. But right at that exact moment, here was Lepper, a elected and (supposedly) trusted public official hammering on an opponent with his fists on TV. Not that the judges cared, but I am sure they at least felt the irony. I say that the truth is that Lepper is an incredibly corrupt liar and show boat. But his resilience seems to also indicate that what he does speaks to Poland on a basic, popular level, no matter how snooty and Yevropenski they might want to think of themselves.

not a leftist said...

Giertych is NOT "ultra Catholic."

He is a fringe Catholic.

Given that Poland is an "ultra" Catholic country, how can he be an *ultra Catholic* and recieve so "little support left in the country after a year and a half in the coalition government with PiS"?

Just another roundabout way of attacking and ridiculing Catholicism by a devotee of the Spiked anti-left ideologues. You don't have to be "left," jannovak, to support gay rights. And lefties don't ridicule environmentalists by calling them "treehuggers." So please stop calling BR a leftist. You are only falling into his trap by doing so.

Anonymous said...

I don't see much choice for the Polish electorate now,but I am sure these two clowns will not be in the running in futue,I am glad to say!

I just hope the new generation of Poles,born after the communist times,will be Professional Politicians.

I don't agree with all that Bosak says, but hearing his interview on Polish Radio, at least he sounds sincere.Maybe in another ten years there will be a selection of such "younger generation" Politicians like this (from a wider variety of Political colours) to choose from.


John,Poznan

michael farris said...

"Poland's little human right's betrayal with me over punching some off duty cop who tried to hit me with his car"

uhhh why would an off duty cop deliberately _try_ to hit you with his car? Isn't it more likely that he didn't notice you and/or wasn't paying attention? (not that that's much better, but negligent dangerous driving is more common in Warsaw than attempted homocide by vehicle.

And your problems weren't unique to Poland, I can't think of any country were civilians who physically attack cops (whether deserved or not, in uniform or not) are not going to face heavy, unpleasant consequences.

beatroot said...

Not a leftist

OK - not ultra catholic - how about christian nationalist?

The rest of your post I fail to understand at all. What trap? I am not a spider....

beatroot said...

And why is the man formerly known as 'Geez' now calling himself 'Not a leftist'? And why has Geez got a bee in his bonnet about Spiked.online?

<> said...

Because Not a Leftist aka <><, formerly known as Geez, who certainly ain't no rightist either, can't abide by the Spiked/ Institute of Ideas/Science Media Centre/Sense About Science/ Genetic Interest Group/Progress Educational Trust/Scientific Alliance line which you seem to "like" so much, BR.

My newfound dislike for Spiked et. al. is predicated pretty much on this little tidbit which pretty much methinks encapsulates and reflects much wider problems with the conglomerate in question:

"Spiked holds many of its seminars at Hill & Knowlton, a company which has 'a reputation for its highly political public relations work. This is the company that "managed communications" at the U.S. Three Mile Island nuclear power station and presented bogus evidence to a congressional meeting to get backing for the Gulf War... More recently, it has been hired "to salvage Enron Corp".' (Nicky Hager, Seeds of Distrust, 2002, p.34)

There's more of course, but the whole modus operandi is very distasteful for me.

I really don't care if you and the other folks were or weren't involved in the RCP however many years ago.

For me it's more a matter of what's happenin' now:

http://www.lobbywatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=78

Dismissing lobbywatch as a bunch of "treehuggers" doesn't quite do it for me.

If you took a whack at any of these folks or groups, I'd feel more at ease.

I don't know much of your actual current association with these folks/groups, BR, but you do seem to continue to follow their modus operandi very exactly.

Sorry, really sorry coz I thought you were somethin' of a "contendah" but I'm afraid I've overextended my welcome.

beatroot said...

Symbol formerly known as Geez....


Firstly, I never was a member of the RCP, or anywhere near being one….(I was a humble left wing member of the labour party up until 1992….secondly, the arguments against environmentalism are all I am interested in, in this context – and there are alternative arguments, you know….and not just on a spiked web site…I really am not interested in who sponsors what gig….if the arguments are shit, Geez, then why not engage in an argument….that is what this blog is for….nobody sponsors this blog and that is the only thing I am responsible for…as for ‘overstaying your welcome…’….???? …..Geez, come on, you are a little more mature than that….

If you would like a longer answer to the above, then I like you enough to write you one….but not here, this is boring for readers who have no interest in this off topic subject…

….I don’t have your email address any more…so send me an email by clicking the link in profile and I promise I will tell you all…..(although it probably isn’t as exciting as you seem to think…)…

michael farris said...

Just a quick note to point out a very good essay/article in Polish:

www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,76842,4309984.html

Wina wykształciuchów (hard to translate, maybe "Blame the edumacated"

The author's thesis is that Polish so-called intellectuals have painted such an unjustified negative portrait of what was happening in Poland from 92-2004 that they made it possible for the current unholy alliance to take power.
He points out that words like 'crisis', 'pauperization' and 'scandal' were overused in public life and used when they weren't appropriate (Poland partook in the worldwide recession of 91 but since has not stopped growing economically and has not endured any kind of economic crisis since the collapse of communism).
The free floating negative energy caused by the hype gave Lepper, the Ducks and Giertych a constituency (among the gullible at least).

beatroot said...

Maybe (some) intellectuals have painted a picture of pauperization etc…but that would be left wing, and some PiS type intellectuals, I presume? I don’t think you would have free market thinkers writing like that….i.e. some of the most dominant personalities since 1989.

Relative pauperization has occurred. The reforms have affected different groups differently. Some have won, many have not. It is that difference, plus a certain truth in the feeling among those who lost that they have been stitched up, plus the failure of the political class during the 1990’s and early 2000 to rid themselves of corruption and the appearance of corruption, that is as much to blame for the resurgence of reactionary politics here as words and thoughts. There is a material basis to this too. .

It’s no good just blaming some intellectuals for this mess. The blame has to go round the political class evenly in Poland and to admit that there has been a failure among ‘ruling classes…’ I don’t think we can blame the intellectuals for bringing the nurses out on strike and camping out outside the PM’s office.

opamp said...

www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,76842,4309984.html

Wow. If you want to know why Gazeta Wyborcza is referred to as Gazeta Wybiórcza (lit. The Selective Newspaper), you need to look no further.

Behold! Now we learn that Balcerowicz&Co. did not in fact pauperize the society, and did not cause the economic disaster. It was all a hostile propaganda.

Well, I'd buy it, if I did not work next door to a factory that after 17 years still looks like someone dropped a nuclear bomb on it. The author has chosen to blind himself to the fact, that the rise of the populism has been brought by none other then the incompetence (or malice, take your pick) of the very "elite" sponsored by GW.

The Poles were never pauperized! Eurasia has always been at war with East-Asia!

Harry said...

I actually quite like this 'teraz kurwa mnie' idea. For the last decade I've been averaging about 50 hours a week of work and about 60% of my income taken by the government (income tax plus ZUS plus VAT plus customs plus excise). Now it's my fucking turn. Time to stop paying the freeloading bastards and keep at least half of the money I earn for myself!


Oh, hang on. I think I've got the wrong end of the stick here....

Harry said...

I mean "teraz kurwa my".


Or actually no I don't. I mean "Now it's my fucking turn". Every week for the past 12 years I've been paying more because I'm not Polish. So now it is my fucking turn: i'm getting more and paying less because I'm a foreigner.

<> said...

BR, either there isn't a way to contact you via your profile anymore or I am too tired or just getting too decrepit to figure it out.

I can understand and empathize with the environmentalist critique to some extent but the Spiked folks should really put "sponsored by Enron" on their website. And you do seem to bite on all their other arguments across the board hook, line and sinker. Sorry but that is disturbing to me. So if you expect me to abide in the Lebowskian sense, you got some splainin' to do -- for what it's worth, I am willing to lend an ear.

Renegade Eye said...

Would the new party be rejected because of the personalties involved, or the politics?

beatroot said...

Actually, you are right, symbol. The email has disappeared. What the fuck?

Anyway here it is....

thebeatroot@gmail.com

I wondered why I wasn't getting any mail!

beatroot said...

Renegade
The �politics� are �um�.uncertain as this is not an ideological union, it is an opportunist alliance. Blatantly.

Harry

I think I must have missed the tax thing. What has changed (or are you suggesting me and you should vote LiS cause they are gonna lower our taxes. If so then do not hold your breath. Both parties are high tax.

Like you I have paid loads of tax here and I demand very little from the state. In fact, nothing at all. But I wouldn�t mind paying the tax if it was going to a decent health service with decent wages for doctors and nurses. Instead it is being wasted on a state sector that is quite simply failing the people that pays for it�

beatroot said...

And I have to agree with Opamp….to make out there has been no pauperization (relative) in Poland since free market (well, kind of) reforms is, to be kind, slightly ludicrous self denial. This is a good old class thing. Gazeta readers, many of them, have done quite well and they can’t understand why everyone doesn’t agree that the reforms were simply a jolly good thing….

michael farris said...

Have you read the article? He does cite (if not quote) figures that back up most of his claims.

Since '92, the Polish economy has grown every single year (more in some years than others of course). To portray the overall Polish economy in terms of crisis or pauperization is simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Especially compared to countries that actually have had economies retract or gone through full scale crises (like Albania, Bulgaria, Russia, Serbia or maybe even Hungary).

Polish pensions are not especially low in comparison with wages and the number of people receiving disability benefits is way too high. In Europe, only Norway (which can afford it) has a higher percentage of working age people on disability. The sad fact is that the disability threshold is set too low. Additionally, some people 'buy' disability benefits (and then according to level of ability and ambition work off the books).

The level of financial stratification is large but not huge in Poland and is in fact lower than in the UK or Italy.

Yes, of course there have been dislocations (some of them painful) and in a few cases traumatic. But many or most of the worst affected are those who would have been the worst affected had Poland remained communist. Some people just don't cope well with life's challenges period. The chronically uneducated, unskilled and prone to addictions and other bad life choices are always going to be with us and they're not going to thrive in any system. The difference is they have a constituency now that they didn't have before. To the extent that they can/should be helped depends on the state of the overall economy.

Just what could/should have been done differently? And before you answer, look at countries that tried your proposal, did it work long term or just put things off.

There have also been some bad choices (especially in early privatization). And some problems are so difficult (paying for healthcare and education for example) that government after government has simply put things off rather than take the necessary unpopular steps toward eventual improvement.

And notice that the current government is doing exactly the same thing; trying to weather crises in those sectors without actually doing anything and making vague hints about improving things in the future without following through.


And as I like to say, in any country where 'beating the system' is the national sport/obsession, the more vulnerable are going to suffer.

But considering what the ... economy (ha, ha, ha) of Poland was like in 1989, the process of transformation has gone about as well (probably better) than could be expected and grinding axes over the mistakes will not help improve things at this point.

beatroot said...

I take all the points above Mikw - the growth of the Polish economy has been very good compated to some other post communist experiments. My point was that blaming 'intellectuals' for stirring up the current mess is simply ignoring real disparities of winners and losers here, and it ignores material the base for this political situation came about. Blaming intellectuals for duping sections of the population is a rather selective explanation, as Opamp has pointed out.

opamp said...

Since '92,

This is the crux of the issue: the pauperization happened in the 1989-1992 period! This is Selective newspaper at it's best. We had a growth every single year since? Sure we did! How otherwise could we reach the 1988 GDP level in 1999?

Yet, the pre-1992 period cannot be mentioned, because mentioning it would make a reader ask: who is responsible for a total of TEN YEARS of wasted economic development? And the answer would have to point at certain prominent persons supported by Gazeta Wyborcza...

Side note:
Do you know Galeria Mokotów in Warsaw? It is build on the site of an integrated circuit factory. That is the real success of Polish transformation: replacing industrial jobs requiring qualified labor with low paid service jobs. Now, of course Galeria Mokotów generates more profit in 2007 dollars, than said factory did in 1990 dollars -- except that there are good reasons to believe that in 2007 a semiconductor factory is still a better business than a shopping mall.

beatroot said...

Very good discussion by the way.

Galeria Mokotów generates more profit in 2007 dollars, than said factory did in 1990 dollars -- except that there are good reasons to believe that in 2007 a semiconductor factory is still a better business than a shopping mall.

I am starting to feel nostalgic. Your argument is the same one that we in the Labour Party (back in the days when it was a Labour Party) were using against the Thatcher government. Thatcher was a monetarist who decided to smash the significant trade union power in the UK, which meant breaking up manufacturing industry and replacing it with a service industry.

Balcerowicz was a monetarist (kind of – the pure stuff had gone out of fashion by then) and effectively used a similar strategy.

Where the two differ is that the world of 1990s were different from 1980s. Manufacturing had already started to move east – the shipyards all over Europe were closing down because they couldn’t compete with the East etc.

Manufacturing generally is disappearing in the West. Poland is following suit.

opamp said...

Your argument is the same one that we in the Labour Party

The subtle difference is that Thatcher was eliminating 19th century industries, while Balcerowicz blew up the most technologically advanced branches of the economy.


At the same time when our economic geniuses were scrapping (literally) electronic factories as economically unsound, some idiots in Finland decided that they should - wait for it - build them. From scratch. In a country where the most advanced thing was paper production. And strangely now Poles use Finnish (NOKIA) phones and not vice versa. But of course, for The Selective Newspaper this passess off as a great economic success.

Now the fun part: after we have joined the EU, a talk started about pursuing a so-called Lisbon strategy. The idea of Lisbon strategy is basically that since EU cannot compete with China on the price, it should be producing technologically advanced products (too sophisticated for the Chinese to copy; if this strategy can really fly is another matter). Okay. So, we are now supposed to produce technologically advanced stuff. Except that Balcerowicz blew up all the technological base, and unfortunately you cannot do nanotechnology in a garage. Oops.

So, what are we now supposed to do? Rebuild everything from scratch, at a great cost of course, or become a great open air museum. (I think that Gazeta Wybiórcza supports the second option).

the shipyards all over Europe were closing down

Ever heard of Scandinavian shipyards?

The year of 2006 will surely be remembered for a very long time as the blissful bonanza for shipbuilding in Norway. Production was up to capacity, new orders and order backlog exceeded any historical precedent at prices that should again leave a decent margin for profit. Most yards are now fully booked into 2009, and contracts are being negotiated for delivery positions well into 2011.

Not bad for an industry that can't compete, with the East, eh?

beatroot said...

I didn’t know about Norwegian shipyards…but there again I don’t know much about Norway.

Okay. So, we are now supposed to produce technologically advanced stuff. Except that Balcerowicz blew up all the technological base, and unfortunately you cannot do nanotechnology in a garage. Oops.

Ever heard of google et al.? Ever heard of Wroclaw et al? Poland is getting a name for itself for computer design, research and development. And that isn’t hype – Poles just are good at that kind of thing. So maybe a reputation for software design (which is helping build the Indian economic miracle, for example) is a better way to go than longing for a manufacturing base that has gone. Kaput.

YouNotSneaky! said...

Of course I agree with Michael Farris, who's got the actual data rather than anecdotes and pure rhetoric on his side, but it's probably pointless to go through that argument again. Let me just say that I think what happened was "pauperization of expectations" rather than actual pauperization - people really though that once the Commies were out it'd be paradise in no time. But that's not how it works, it takes time, and yes, a painful transition stage.

Second point here is that the economy was on a downward spiral pre-1988 (if you remember those times) and when you get in a situation like this it's not the easiest thing to turn the whole ship around in a matter of months or even years. The pauperization that occured 1989-1992 would've happened anyway and would've continued for much longer. But really where does the "10 years of wasted development" come from? 1992-2007 is 15 yrs and it hasn't been wasted.

Also, like I said before, I wouldn't characterize Balcerowicz as "monetarist" (even in the incorrect sense it's being used around these parts) and I'm no fan of GW.

Speaking of which, back onto topic, here's the much more reliable Rzepa showing that there are likely negative synergies to the LiS merger, 5<6+3:

http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/pics/07/17202113.jpg

opamp said...

Ever heard of google et al.? Ever heard of Wroclaw et al?

Aside from the fact that several "high-tech" investments (IBM, Google) are in fact accounting operations, a typical "software center" (Motorola, Sabre, Siemens) is a rented building with about a hundred or so desks with computers, at about 1000 EUR each. Hardly a capital investment, so contrary to a manufacturing plant it can be shut down overnight with no loss.

About half of computers in Poland have CPUs made in Dresden (AMD Fab 36). Care to explain how come that such an operation is profitable in Germany, yet, nobody wants to build something like that in Poland, where costs are lower?

But, what do I know. I am not an economist, I work in this business.

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