Tuesday, November 04, 2008

Poland wants Obama


Even though not as enthusiastic as most Europeans, Poles would vote for Barrack Obama by a margin of three-to-one.

According to a poll conducted by the BBC World Service, from a sample of over 22,000 in 16 countries in all continents, the world is anxious for a win by the senator from Illinois. For instance, in the UK, says the report:


By more than a six-to-one margin, a majority in the United Kingdom would prefer to see Barack Obama elected president instead of John McCain. Britons are among the largest majorities saying that America’s relations with the rest of the world would remain the same under John McCain, while a majority says they would improve under Obama.

Support for Obama is pretty unambiguous in Britain. In Poland, though not so clear cut, support for John McCain is weak.


Thirty-eight per cent of Poles would like to see Barack Obama elected US president while just 13 per cent say they prefer John McCain and 49 per cent do not express an opinion.

Poles are divided on whether America’s relations with the world would improve if Obama were elected US president (33%) or whether they would largely stay the same (31%), though just 4 per cent feel they would become worse. Poles most commonly would see relations staying the same under a McCain presidency (41%), while 12 per cent say relations would improve and 6 per cent feel they would become worse.

Just 13 percent would vote for the Republican!

This is quite a change from four years ago. Back then, the Philippines, Nigeria and Poland were among the few countries to favour Bush's re-election. All three now favour Barrack Obama.

In the US itself, the Polonia vote is mixed. Rob Strybel, who is an American Pole based now in Warsaw, sums up the changing voting patterns of Poles through the decades. Like most immigrations they voted Democrat through the New Deal years.

But that changed from the radical sixties inwards, particularly after the disastrous McGovern loss to Nixon in 1972. Writes Strybel:



Polonia’s pro-Republican stance became more firmly grounded during the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, Sr, both of whom were seen as aiding the cause of Poland’s independence.


But now it is 2008, and Blacks, Jews, Latinos, trade-unionists and most Hollywood types have by and large remained Democratic sympathizers. With Polish Americans and voters with other East, Central and Southern European roots, political loyalties are more diversified. Some say that most Polish Americans have made the transition into the middle class and do not perceive themselves as a separate electorate with specific needs.


So Poles do not vote a block anymore and have differsyfied in terms of class, areas where they live and so on. They have, in short, become more American.

The central issue, I think, for everyone watching the election, both in the US and outside, is: which candidate can get back the respect, at home and abroad, for the “Land of the Free”? I think that a vote for Obama just might get back some of that respect. But you never know - after four years the world might be ready for Mrs Palin.

God save us. God bless America: the only country in the world which has the bright idea of representing its two main parties by the sign of an elephant...and a donkey?

48 comments:

db tim 2.3 said...

I wouldn't take Strybel to be much of an expert on anyhing other than Polish recipies. His politics are far right (Rydzik-like) and things he has written have been borderline antisemitic.

beatroot said...

I know Rob - I have worked with him - and he is no anti-semite...

db tim 2,3 said...

You knew Mol, too. Would you have ever thunk? Maybe you should go back and read his syndicated columns that appear in Polish American newspapers. Do you not think he is far right, too?

beatroot said...

I think that is a little cheap...

db tim 2,3 said...

Some of his written commentaries have been cheaper. How does Mr. Strybel feel about gays?

db Tim 2,3 said...

Was Dmowski anti-semitic?

jannowak57 said...

Beatroot said: “In the US itself, the Polonia vote is mixed.”

Polonia in the US is for all intensive purposes irrelevant at least on a national level, perhaps remains a factor in a few local elections. Unless its votes could be delivered on mass to a favoured candidate it has no clout to influence those in power. Although there are a large number of people genetically linked to Poland (about 10 million) there are only around 600,000 households where Polish is actually spoken. In terms of actual American minorities it is a relatively low ranking. Compare this to Jewish Americans who have fewer numbers but are highly organized and delivery a voting block to the democrats of something like 80% of their minority group. This translates into having your voice heard in the corridors of power.

Mark said...

I tend to agree with jannowak57, the "Polonia" has become amalgamated and rooted in the American soil. I know many people with, for example, Polish last names and Italian grandmothers, or Polish last names and Scottish first names. Which is how it should be - long live the melting pot and pluribus unum!

To my mind, a perpetual existence in an ethnic ghetto and engagement in tribal politics (in the Chicago style) limits one's growth in many ways.
Jan Nowak 57, if you have any Chicago background, do you remember the good old days of Eddie Vyrdolyak contra Mayor Washington? Or Mayor Jane Byrne and the snowstorm that ended her career?
But I digress.

As far as having one's voice heard, the Catholic Church, the common denominator here, fulfills this role admirably. And it has more "gravitas" than any ethnic group alone.

db Tim 2,3 said...

Seems to me that the concepts of "melting pot" and "E pluribus unum" are antithetical.

The melting pot metaphor sounds painful. It takes away from peoples' uniqueness. Wonderbread. It takes away the "many" aspect.

The concept of cultural pluralism suggests a less painful salad bowl metaphor. You can taste the different flavors in a salad.

But I agree that white folks from Europe have become Americanized over the years, losing their ethnic distinctiveness. Overall, movement away from ethnic tribal politics is a plus. But what kind of politics has it been replaced by? Is the politics of fear and resentment an upgrade?

The Catholic Church is just as and maybe more divided these days than the Republican Party. Most Catholics ignore the "gravitas." Let's see how the Catholic vote turns out this time around.

beatroot said...

It's 4.15 in the morning here and it looks lkike a slam dunk Obama...Ohio ..etc...the US has its first African American president...a proud day for the US....well done you guys...you have come a long way...

ge'ez said...

WOW! The most encouraging thing to see is that the young folks voted overwhelmingly 2-1 for him. Amazing! The victory celebration for Obama in Grant Park --- what a difference 40 years makes, huh???

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luridtraversal said...

I'm so pleased with the results!!! It feels like America finally did something right, and it only took 8 years of Bush to do it. I never thought that I'd see an African-American elected president in my lifetime. I always assumed that fires of racism would still be enough. I'm very pleasantly surprised. I'm also having the time of my life reading the vitriole being spewed from the conservatives today!!! What a good night for America...it almost makes me wish I was back home...

ge'ez said...

I've never enjoyed watching Faux News until this morning.

You may not see it on the news, but there was a party ringing around the gates of the White House last night with thousands and thousands of people which lasted until this morning. It may even still be going on.

Reminds me of back when Nixon resigned and a somber and sternly serious Dan Rather was reporting live in front of the White House while crowds of people were partying and whooping it up. Then, a fire truck went by sirens screaming and somebody plainly yells, "They're finally coming to take him away to jail!" Ol' Dan was momentarilly stunned and then just went back to the somber bit.

Mark said...

This is a historic choice, as far as the first African American being elected to the office of President. However, in addition to the skin color, we should also consider issues of character. This choice is an enigma in many respects, a projection of unarticulated desires and wishes. Those who voted for this "hope", should now articulate what their wishes are - what are your expectations of this man? Where do you want to be in four years? Or do you want to be told where you're going to go?

In a way, this choice also offers us Republicans a welcome two to four years to reaffirm and teach the essence of conservative values to our base, and make converts. We also need to refine the conservative leadership, analyze the performance of the media, and turn the sting of defeat into strength.

We're only four short Alaska hunting seasons from the next cycle.

ge'ez said...

Sorry Mark, but you are in the minority even among Catholics -- who went big time for Obama 54-45%.

And I have much enjoyed watching Faux News today with the split between those Republicans excoriating Sarah Palin and those pronouncing her the messiah-ess of the Republican Party for 2012.

I'm all for you guys shoring up your base with her at the helm. If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know.

ge'ez said...

I assume you McPalin supporters are so quiet because you're all so busy writing Faux News defending the Guvna against the vicious attacks against her by her Republican former handlers and the "exempspecially rabidismic" anti-Sarah reporters at Faux:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/05/palin-didnt-know-africa-i_n_141653.html

Even poor ol' Bill couldn't find it in himself to continue to press his defense of her, though...

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

In case you haven't noticed, the euphoria is starting to subside rather quickly. If you own a 401K account, you might want to get informed about a Democrat trial ballon regarding the government takeover of such private financial instruments. Wonder why the media didn't talk about this before the election?

ge'ez said...

oo0Oh. I'm scared. Really scared.

I don't know if you've noticed, but thanks to Bush, the greed of his cronies, and his stupid war, my retirement account has already lost about 30% of it's value in the past month or so. I've lost a really nice car, in other words. If "the media" failed to notice this purported new "communist" takeover, it looks like Faux was asleep -- or more focused on really big scandals like Obama's half-sister. 54-45%. Owwwwwie!

roman said...

ge'ez,

Is it really your belief that the blame for all our problems is "Bush and his cronies"? Have you gone completely bonkers or just suffering from that common liberal affliction called partisan denial? The last time I checked, Pelosi and the rest of the Jackasses were in control of Congress with an approval rating that is even less than Bush.
We conservatives promise to emulate the Democrats' treatment of Bush in all our dealings with Obama. Can't wait for his first screw up! What comes around.. :-))

beatroot said...

Is it really your belief that the blame for all our problems is "Bush and his cronies"?

As I said before - in a couple of years the "blame Bush for everything" line is not going to work. He is going to have to come up with stuff. The jury is out about him till he does.

But Roman - the reason this election is historic is that an African-American - in the literal sense of the term - has been elected president. That really is something for a country with your past history. So - come on, say it: there is very good things in the election of Obama..

Come on...

roman said...

beatroot,

OK, OK, I admit it. It is an incredibly significant historical event. The preceeding comments were only meant to needle ge'ez.
When that moose-hunting hockey mom Sarah Palin takes over in '12 it will be an even more significant chapter in USA history.

beatroot said...

The moose will be relieved, I suppose, if she is otherwise engaged.

beatroot said...

The moose will be relieved, I suppose, if she is otherwise engaged.

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

I've read your comments about the Catholic vote with interest. You're right, about half went to the left.

While we're on this subject, what I offer you below is a link to pure Catholic teaching from Kansas City, with a capital C, and with no apologies. It comes via a popular blog run by Father Z, called "wdtprs". Word of caution for the sheltered and the unprepared - fasten your seat-belts:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/11/bp-finn-on-the-eve-of-the-election-woe-to-those/

ge'ez said...

The Wanderer. The Wanderer. So Mark, yare you really that far gone. A "popular" blog. "Pure" Catholic teaching. But not so popular among the 54% of Catholics who voted for Obama, heh? I don't think it's so pure either but I'm not going to get into an extended religious argument here.

But, here's more "pure" food for your beleaguered soul that you might find appetizing from the ever "popular" Fr. Hardon. Yea, Father Hardon who informs us that our beloved country has gone Marxist:

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Communism/Communism_002.htm

Assuredly, you must walk the talk as recognized by the Most Reverend Robert W. Finn, Bishop of Kansas City-St. Joseph:

"You and I will be faced with this legal trial: whether we should pay our taxes making us participants in the slaughter of Innocents or be liable for jail and fines."

What is so bad about going to jail when all eternity is at stake?

Or will you wuss out like this commenter on that blog: "but wouldn’t render-unto-Ceasar apply here?"

And don't forget: The moose will be relieved, I suppose, if she is otherwise engaged.

Only one thing. You might want to look at the abortion rate in the Netherlands despite what the good bishop seems to think:

http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. Here are my comments:

As far as the Catholic vote for those who openly oppose ex cathedra teachings of the Church:
this reflects the sad fact that in our country, for several decades now, many faithful didn't hear many of these teachings. What they heard instead was a "social gospel", which purposefully excluded the difficult teachings, especially those linking sexuality with morality. This is one of the problems within our Church being remedied now;

In my opinion, the nature of Marxism was never discussed, explained, or analyzed in any depth in the West. Compare one indicator - the number of movies dealing with fascism to the number dealing with Marxism. When it is being mentioned, it focuses on only one aspect of this ideology, the one dealing with the elimination of private property, a mere by-product of its philosophy. The hardest aspects, those dealing with the elimination of individuality, individual conscience and free will, and subjection of the "masses" to the "collective will" are almost never mentioned. However, this is beginning to be remedied as well;

As far as Netherlands and abortion - I applaud all those who help pregnant and abandoned women. But where are the men who impregnated them - why do they abandon their "toys" once they are broken and afflicted with morning sickness, growing belly, and looming financial obligations? Why are these males allowed to walk away, and duplicate their irresponsible behavior with a new "toy"? This irresponsible and selfish behavior of many males needs to be remedied.

ge'ez said...

Being remedied now? How?
By whom?

ge'ez said...

Lemme guess. You're a Steubbenville kid. If so, I'll pray especially hard for you my poor child.

If you want to cut down the number of abortions and deal with irresponsibility, please actually read and consider the public policy initiatives employed in the Netherlands. Rubbers and other forms of birth control may not be perfect, but they do go a long way in preventing most pregnancies. In terms of looming financial obligations, again please consider public policy in the Netherlands. But you prolly think such government support is communism and thus evil to be avoided.

BTW, do you think that pregnancy is an affliction or just the morning sickness associated with it?

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

I'm a Traditionalist Catholic, and will let the Steubenvillians define themselves within the spectrum of Catholicism. As such, I view the family (father, mother, children, and hopefully grandparents) as the basic cell of any human society. It's an organic unit, thru which the larger society with its culture and economy is built and propagated. This cell is subject to certain natural laws, such as those dealing with procreation and sexuality, love, raising and civilizing children, taking care of the aged, managing capital and inheritance, etc. For Catholics, this cell is also a sacrament, i.e. a divinely ordained institution.

In societies where this basic cell is neglected or weakened, and which have no recourse to a moral correcting mechanism (such as the Church), various social pathologies develop in very short order. I see the male as especially vulnerable here, he usually becomes the first carrier of irresponsibility and arrested emotional development. Rubbers, and other birth control methods, only permit these "men" to function at an adolescent level of emotional development for far too long. Rather than assuming the responsibilities of fatherhood and monogamy, they continue to chase their next orgasm. And their past conquests and offspring become brides and children of the State.

ge'ez said...

Steubenvillians. I like that. I hope you don't mind because I will be stealing that moniker from you in my future references to them.

And you are going to stop their "adolescent" behavior how? Your example, moral reeducation, and conversion to the Wanderer-pure version of Catholicism? Sorry but it's never going to happen or work.

Again, being remedied now? How?
By whom?

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

It's going to happen one overheated "adolescent" at a time.

It starts with the Church, which is finally showing the signs of putting its own house in order.

ge'ez said...

OK.

And these "signs" are what???

One at a time?

You should have started with the adolescent behavior of McCain. His inability to keep his pecker in his pants was legendary. It would have also been a good idea to get to that hockey player before they had to pull out that shotgun to make sure he got married.

Mark said...

One of the signs is the younger generation of priests, seminarians, and active laity, who are unlike the preceding generation. Much to the dismay of aging progressives.

And who's this McCain you're talking about? Was he some kind of a VIP a while ago? Oh yes, now I remember, he discovered our first female president, in the land of Alaska. Much to the dismay of aging feminists.

Renegade Eye said...

Europe has a whole likes Obama. Will they still like him when he tries to pressure them into sending more troops to Afghanistan?

Everyday Obama will be farther from his base. Having Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff, is a slap in their face to start. I heard he plans to keep Robert Gates as Secretary of Defense, holding him over from the Bush administration. His inclinations are naturally centrist.

ge'ez said...

Mark, it looks like you welcome shrinkage. It may well be true that the younger ranks of the priesthood are more into the kind of dogmatism you prefer. But you can bet your booties that they will not grow or maintain the Body of Christ in terms of the number of the active faithful. Hey, did you hear about Cardinal Martini's new book? Hmmm. Will he be excommunicated or will he shake the foundations of the Church?

Finally, it looks like we can pray together for one thing -- that Palin will be the Republican presidential nominee. And I hope and pray as well that Rudy Giuliani comes in as her choice for VP to balance the ticket.

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

It's not about numbers, it's about clarity and the guts to preach the doctrine. Clear, unambiguous, and uncompromising doctrine makes numbers naturally and quicky.

No one follows an uncertain trumpet, even Marxists, and now loosing Republicans, know this.

ge'ez said...

It is about numbers if you want to win an election. Unless you think it was the Holy Spirit that brought about the election of Obama (which is fine by me).

No offense but your wrongheaded interpretations of doctrine (not to mention suspect doctrinal development), no matter how clearly, unambigiously and uncompromisingly preached, are going to reduce numbers of folks who consider themselves Catholics and lessen the number of people who attend Mass. You think so many folks have fallen away because of lack of some kind of doctrinal rigidity? You really think that preaching against rubbers is going to pack 'em in? I prefer the big tent and welcoming all to the table. Sounds a lot more Christian to me. Again, what do you think of the Martini bombshell (or is calling it a cocktail more appropriate?)? Are you aware of what the good Cardinal wrote? Check it out in Chiesa. Seems to me he's got to be excommunicated or there's going to really be an uproar coming from your ranks. Folks like 57 are gonna love this coming tempest.

ge'ez said...

Oh my.

Since the 1980s, the number of priests has dropped 10 to 12 percent per decade, and there are signs of a continuing decline in the years ahead. The average age of nonretired priests in 2001, for instance, was 56.

The number of U.S. ordinations has ranged between 440 and 540 annually in recent years, but with a long-term gradual decline. Today American seminaries are producing priests at between 35 and 45 percent of the number needed to keep the priesthood at a constant size.

Washington, May. 9, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Roughly one-third of the Catholic priests scheduled to be ordained in the United States in 2008 were born in another country, the US bishops' conference has revealed.

Mark said...

Ge'ez:

I detect signs of schadenfreude in your musings on the problems within the Catholic Church. That clarifies where you stand at the moment.

Doctrinal rigidity? Right, tell the Marxists their ideological tent needs to be larger, and hear what they have to say about it.

The lines are clearer now then before, and both sides will play to win. Amateurs, weasels, and those faint of heart need not apply.

ge'ez said...

Whose misfortune?

What Marxists? There's a dead god for you.

If you think the US is a Marxist country, then you must include a lot of people under that ideological tent.

You can't have it both and every which way.

Maybe if you explain the sides to me...

Are those "faint of heart" lumped in with the weasels? Amateurs with the weasels? AC Amateurs vs. the Weasels FC? Will the weasels rip my flesh?

In any event, you can include me on Cardinal Martini's side (at least on the matter of the tempest of the moment), so let me know where you place him. You do read Chiesa, no?

Mark said...

Hey Ge'ez, enjoyed the conversation, but what do you say we give it a rest for a while?

I'll be busy looking for a new supplier of hair shirts, the old one will just not cut it for the next four years (too comfortable, not enough pain).

Anonymous said...

Aside from the election being FIXED, this is the most disgraceful and unpatriotic thing I've ever witnessed. The U.S. sold its soul to the devil (Obama) over lies and broken promises. Only gullible fools would vote for such a creep. "Hope and Change" my ass... this goon will establish a socialist style tyranny like that of craphole France. The retards voted this radical in office and they'll pay for it - DEARLY. (Serves the bastards right). Btw, crackpot Obama is an Arab, not Black. This dog and pony show (election '08) is like a memory of 9/11. I wish the stupid Fucktards out there would stop coddling the enemy. It's boneheads like you who are ruining our wonderful country. Stop trashing President Bush! It's his resolve and determination that permit you assholes to talk shit about him. If you love Arabs and muslims so much, flights are available around the clock. (Hint: get the hell out of our country you Fucking traitors!!!!) Goddamn liberals make me so fucking sick!!!!

mahmoud said...

Then I don't think you are going to survive the next 16 years (and then some).

sheik yerbouty said...

Sorry anon, it's OUR country now, you traitor!

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