Oh, dear. This story is going to be huge.
It is emerging that two different issues are at stake: firstly, who fired the shots and were the shots actually fired at President Saakashvili and President Kaczynski? And secondly, it has emerged that the security arrangments travelling with Pres. Kaczynski were woefully inadequate for a trip to what is, basically, still a war zone.
The convoy travelling with the two presidents was between 15 and 30 cars. Journalists, unusually, were placed near the front of the motorcade. Suspicious? The trip - to an area in South Ossetia, which was, unusually, was in control of Georgia before the short war in August but is now in Russian controlled hands - appears to have not been on President Kaczynski’s original itinerary: he was in Georgia to celebrate the fifth anniversary of the so-called Rose Revolution. But, sometime on the way to Georgia, or when he was actually there, he and Saakashvili decided to go and see if Russian troops had in fact withdrawn, as was in the plan the EU cooked up at the end of the shooting.
Well, Kaczynski found - you could say, Kaczynski has demonstrated - that Russia is still in control there.
Russia says the whole thing was cooked up by Saakashvili and Kaczynski to make Moscow look bad. Kaczynski and Saakashvili say that the whole thing was a provocation by Russia.
At a guess, the shots probably were by South Ossetian militia - but to what aim? They say that the convoy asked for permission to enter the area but this was refused. Some of the cars, regardless, started to enter. Maybe that was when the shots - warning shots - were fired?
That said, reports by journalists travelling with the two presidents say that at times security officials were nowhere near the car taking Kaczynski to a zone with a lot of guns in it. Whatever Kaczynski was up to he was being extremely reckless, as he was when he showed up with presidents of the Baltic states and Ukraine on the final day of the August conflict.
The Polish government has been trying to clam things down saying that the whole incident was not as serious as is being painted by the Presidential Palace and they have inferred that this is a very convenient way for president Kaczynski to scupper any re-start of talks between the EU and Russia to forge a wide ranging agreement on many issues - something that the Civic Platform led government supports.
Whatever - Kaczynski’s one man war with the Ruskis continues.
Sunday, November 23, 2008
Kaczynski, Saakashvili at the end of Russian guns?
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30 comments:
So huge that
"The page cannot be displayed
Explanation: The Web server refused the connection, possibly because a service on the upstream server is inactive"
Connection works my end....where do you live?
In UK currently. Link works now.
No doubt we will see lots of claims and counter-claims: Was it a Russian assasination plot? Was it a set-up to discredit Russia? Did the Russians deliberately fail to kill them in order to make it look like a set-up? etc, etc...
While it would be unwise to completely rule out any of the above options, to me it seems that if you are going to drive in a motorcade through a notoriously unstable region where most adult males own Kalashnikovs then someone is bound to take a pot-shot at you.
Sometimes there is more than meets the eye. Sometimes less.
Possibilities:
Probably another drunken Russian soldier that had his fill of looting and raping, so he moved on to shooting a moving cars.
As with much in Russia the assassin was incompetent.
Russians not accustomed to shooting Poles when they’re not a close range with their hands tied behind their back.
Putin decides to assassinate the Duck but runs out of radioactive poisons.
Tusk’s finger prints found on trigger.
..and they missed?
Kaczynski says he was outside the car when it happened. Komorowski - a government member, not a fan of kaczor - said that the sniper must have been "bling"...
Beatroot said “South Ossetian militia At a guess, the shots probably were by South Ossetian militia”
South Ossetian militia is a pack of stooges in the pay of Moscow and under their control.
Beatroot said “was in Georgia to celebrate the fifth anniversary of the so-called Rose Revolution”
We should applaud any nations struggle to free itself from any remaining vestiges of Russian imperialism.
Beatroot said “he and Saakashvili decided to go and see if Russian troops had in fact withdrawn”
The Russians made a commitment and lied through their teeth about honouring it, which makes you think why Europe should sign any agreements with Russia when that nation’s history and track record indicates it’s word and signature is worthless.
Beatroot said “Russia says the whole thing was cooked up by Saakashvili and Kaczynski to make Moscow look bad”
Russia requires no assistance to look bad.
Beatroot said “Whatever Kaczynski was up to he was being extremely reckless, as he was when he showed up with presidents of the Baltic states and Ukraine on the final day of the August conflict.”
The courage of ones convictions does not require redefinition as reckless. Those who stayed in London, Paris and Berlin displayed a reckless ignorance of recent history. Sarkozy might as well screamed “peace in or time” after letting the Russians get away with not meeting their commitments
Beatroot said “was in Georgia to celebrate the fifth anniversary of the so-called Rose Revolution”
We should applaud any nations struggle to free itself from any remaining vestiges of Russian imperialism.
Revolution? Come on! What we had was a change of guard, from ex-soviet types to a flake like Saavashvili (allegedly!).
And maybe you are gonna get used to the fact that some people, like Ossetians, feel more secure with Russia. Shit happens!
As for recklessness dressed up as courage of one's convictions...well, OK. I will give kaczynski some balls. But I also get the impression that he is running a one man band foreign policy, often against the government's wishes and does not seem to think of the consequences of what he is doing. It is beyond belief that a head of state runs around the Caucasus on a whim. He seemed to want to provoke a reaction....and he has got one.
So what?
Are there Russian troops there or not? I don't see how the Duck proved anything one way or the other.
As for K-ski having balls, how can you be so sure that Saakashvili told him exactly where they were going? And wouldn't there have been a smarter way to prove there are Russian troops there than by having two President's drive there?
Beatroot said: “Revolution? Come on! What we had was a change of guard, from ex-soviet types to a flake like Saavashvili (allegedly!).”
Translation of “ex-soviet types” – Moscow’s puppets and partners in crime
Translation of “flake” – a patriot who desires to protect his country from Russian imperialism
Beatroot said: “And maybe you are gonna get used to the fact that some people, like Ossetians, feel more secure with Russia. Shit happens!
France and Great Britian handed over Czechoslovakia to the Germans, Shit happens however too bad about the consequences…..What was the death toll in WW2?
Beatroot said: “But I also get the impression that he is running a one man band foreign policy”
Correspondingly Tusk has been too weak on Russia.
ge'ez said... “Are there Russian troops there or not? I don't see how the Duck proved anything one way or the other.”
Yes, they could hear Russian being spoken at the checkpoint which is on territory the Russians signed an agreement to leave. This all verifiable by the EU monitors whose silence is deafening under directions from Brussels and the EU club of professional apologists for Russian conduct.
they could hear Russian being spoken at the checkpoint which is on territory the Russians signed an agreement to leave. This all verifiable by the EU monitors
????????
They, meaning K-ski and the ChakaKhanvili guy?
Verified or supposedly verifiable by the EU monitors?
a patriot who desires to protect his country from Russian imperialism...
patriot is fine, unstable nutcase is not.
I think the comment about WW II is a little cheap. What exactly would you have liked the British to have done? Invade Germany? They couldn't invade the Shetland Islands at that time...no army, you see.
Geez - Kaczynski said he "recognised the voices" of whoever waqs hanging around the border..."they were russians..."
On the news that is saw, President Saakashvili look absolutley thrilled at the whole thing, just as he did after that BBC journalist got shot at during the war. Whether he orcastrated it of not, he was very happy it happened. The news was also comparing the Georgian security response to that of a previous shooting at the President, and this time they were decideley sleep in their reactions.
Why was the Polish security so far behind? Regardless of the Georgian's, the Poles should not have allowed themselves to be sidelined in the security operation like this.
As for the journalists being at the front of the convoy, that just stinks of a set-up.
What was Kaczyński thinking of, trusting Saakashvili? This is the man who tried to get a whole country rubbed out, never mind the president of Poland.
Poles and World War Two. Oh dear, oh dear. Roosevelt and Churchill rate lower than Franco, didn't you know?
Yeah, you know someone is on a shakey argument when they regurgitate WW II...
beatroot said: “unstable nutcase”
It seems mental instability follows Russian imperialism, what affliction shall you be assigning to the Ukrainians in the near future?
beatroot said: “I think the comment about WW II is a little cheap. What exactly would you have liked the British to have done? Invade Germany? They couldn't invade the Shetland Islands at that time...no army, you see.”
At least if they had not the means for assisting Czechoslovakia, which by the way some historians claim they and the French did, they did not need to be Hitler’s accomplices.
varus said.. “stinks of a set-up.”
Nice bit of mental gymnastics but the Russians did the shooting from a position that they promised not to be in.
Anonymous said... “Roosevelt and Churchill rate lower than Franco, didn't you know?”
For all of Franco’s misdeeds he never sat at a table and deliberately sold out Poland, which had to endure 45 years of the communist pestilence. Today we are exhuming the body of a Polish Patriot likely murdered by or with the complicity of the British. This would be unnecessary if the files were turned over to us but in London they refuse, something to hide?
We are a nation surrounded by enemies from the east as well the west and blessed with allies that are worth less then spit.
geez
The Russians being at that check point is known to the monitors and more than a dozen witness heard Russian spoken this isn’t a great revelation the issue is that the Russia signed an agreement with the EU to withdraw and have not done so. The EU response of nothing holding the Russians to account is the controversy and declaring business as usual with France, Germany and Italy leading the appeasement brigade. Europe needs to take a stand now while it’s cheaper and simpler.
<> As for the journalists being at the front of the convoy, that just stinks of a set-up.
--> Were these the witnesses who 57 says heard Russian being spoken?
What I'm getting at is that I haven't seen anything that indicates anybody other than K-ski and S-ili heard Russian during the most recent escapade. Did the journalists hear Russian? I admit I haven't looked that extensively for articles, but I have looked.
Jannowok57 said: "The Russians made a commitment and lied through their teeth about honouring it, which makes you think why Europe should sign any agreements with Russia..."
It is interesting that NATO too will likely be launching high level diplomatic talks with Russia again through the Russia-NATO council. As I ask the question at Atlantic Review, is this capitulation by the West to Russian aggression, or is it just pragmatic diplomacy?
I argue: "With regards to NATO, completely severing ties will likely get it nowhere with an intransigent Russia, and may even hurt NATO allies who depend on Russia for things like allowing supply trains through Russian territory to support troops in Afghanistan. Instead, maintaining diplomatic relations without sacrificing NATO's enlargement agenda will be a pragmatic move forward for the Alliance."
Full article here: http://www.atlanticreview.org/archives/1213-Western-rapprochement-with-Russia-capitulation-or-pragmatism.html
Could it not be Russian speaking Ossete?
Kyle - Atlantic Review said... “maintaining diplomatic relations without sacrificing NATO's enlargement agenda will be a pragmatic move forward for the Alliance."
I agree with that concept but I do not agree with allowing the Russians to get away with not meeting their obligation to withdraw per the signed agreement. If the EU and US allow the status quo then Moscow will come to the conclusion that military adventures pay off thus emboldening them to further aggressive action on a far grander scale. There is no need to sever relations but a moratorium on new agreements until there is compliance with what they signed would make sense. Besides as things stand a Russian signature on any agreement is worthless.
Just a reminder for the appeasement crowd:
Nobody is at fault here other than the Russians, they organized and controlled this act of aggression from the very start.
On 4 August 2008, five battalions of the Russian 58th Army were moved to the vicinity of Roki Tunnel
This is what happened on August 7: the Ossetians launched a large-scale offensive against Georgian villages in the Tskhinvali area and simultaneously a Russian military column moved through the Rok tunnel. At this point Russia was now directly invading Georgia. The Georgians had to respond.
On August 7, the Georgian troops launched a large-scale offensive against South Ossetia. On August 8, they attacked Tskhinvali. After Russian troops arrived on the frontlines, the Georgian troops retreated.
The key questions hear is how 100,000 Russian troops were lined up and ready for action at a moment that was coordinated with the Ossetian attack on Georgian villages. These troops had already a battle plan, the relevant maps distributed, forward supply depots and air support in position.
Jannowak57, surley you are getting side tracked. The issue is not who started the summer war, but what happened two days ago. In response to my post you wrote:
"varus said.. “stinks of a set-up.”
Nice bit of mental gymnastics but the Russians did the shooting from a position that they promised not to be in."
Are you trying to convince us that the Russians controled the order ofd the convoy, and it was them who made sure that the Polish security team was 300 meters away from thier principal? This was controled by the georgians, and the question is why? If the Russians did the shooting than why were these two things done by the Georgians?
As for Russian being spoken, with that line of argument are we to assume that everyone on this blog is English? - It has been known for other nationalities to be able to speak Russian, and dare i say it, pretend to be Russian.
varus said.. “pretend to be Russian”
The Georgian people should now rest easy as they were invaded by a pretend army only pretending that it was occupying Georgian territory. It would follows they were pretending to shoot at the cars and block the road. This would lay the entire blame on President Saakashvili and President Kaczynski for failing to drive through the nonexistent road block which is inside internationally recognized Georgian territory.
The Russians did it.
In August Suckershvili ran away like a frightened rat because he heard the revs of his own jets engines. In November he decided to proove that he is not that coward, so he organized this shooting by a few of his stoogie soldiers, he was (bravely) smiling through the sounds of gunshots, put the journalists in the farfront of the convoy to report both the shooting & Suckershvili's bravery, then he blamed the Russians for it. However, Polish intellegence found out the whole truth in less than 4 days. the Question is: isn't the Polish president ashamed of befriending such an idiot like Suckershvili? or could it be: tell me who is your friend & will tell you who you are?
Just ran into that blogging by chance...I am horrified by yr comments...'A drunken Russian soldier, an assisination plot, the Russian imperialism' etc... Did you, guys get completely crazy in your hatred towarda the Russians? What is your 'free' (LOL!) media is saying to you about us to feed that hatred? The good Russian is a dead Russian?...Who said that? Hitler, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Bush, Pilsudsky or maybe Marina Mnishek? I wonder when you will start killing us just because we are Russians? Now or later? My God, your are really blind in your racist, ultra-nationalitic approach.. No, really, guys, shame on you...
The truth is that thanks to the position of Russia the countries like Georgia and Ukraine gained their independence in 1990-1991. It was the Russian proposal to dessolve the Soviet Union at the end fo 1991. We thought we should have friendly neibourghs with which we shall live in peace and friendship... Instead, with the US support, the ultra-nationalist puppet and corrupt governments installed at the end in those countries with everyday insulting anti-Russian rethorics as an instuments to preserve their power and to discharge generious financial assistance from the West..
The truth is on Aug 7, the Georgian troops started the large-scale night attack on the capital of S. Ossetia, using mass distruction weapons, deliberately killing thousands of civilians in their shelters with tank guns and fire weapons, house by house, shelter by shelter...Where was your 'free" media then to show the distruction in the S. Ossetian capital, to show bodies of civilians lying on streets...Nowhere... just silent... The Geogian plan was pure and simple: to kill as much as possible Ossetians so that the issue of S. Ossetia ceased to exit.
The truth is that the Russian tanks started to pour in through the Rock tunnel only in Aug 8 to protect the flow of refugees going to N. Ossetia, with those refugees being under constant fire of the georgian planes and troops. Do you remmeber that on Aug 9, the georgian defense minister declared that the Georgian troops controlled practically the entire territory of S. Ossetia? And that was true... The Russian tanks arrived in the Ossetian capital only on Aug 10 when the civilian population was already either killed or fleeded to the North...
Do you think that if Russian 'imperialists' wanted to 'occupy' Georgia and to deprive its people of independence, they could not have easily done that in the following days by seizing Tbilisi? If it was our goal, we could have 'occupied' Georgia long before... say... in 90s or in early 2000, when Georgia was weak and divisioned politically? No, really...you are really blind in your anti-Russian sentiments...
The truth also is that the cars of the Georgian and Polish presidents tried to cross the S. Ossetian border with Georgia when they encountered an Ossetia's militia check-point. After a fierce discussions, the militiamen refused the entry and the Georgian presidetial guards' car tried to smash the check point barage on the road to let the presidential cars to cross the border and one the presidential guards fired in the air to intimidate the militiamen. When the presidential guards understood that the road barriers were diffuclt to smash by cars, they had to return...And that's it!
What was that? A deliberate Saakashvili provocation? Of course! Did the Polish President want to participate in it? Without any doubt! Could you imagine what would have happened if the militamen had returned the fire? 'The Russian 'imperialists' tried to assinate our dear president'. Kachinsky (or whatever) on the top of popularity, the Russia-EU negotiations are disrupted, the media - 'Russians bears revealed their real animal face'. Brilliant! Congratulations!
And please stop playing with Russia-EU, Russia-NATO ties. If you do not want Russia to be your partner and friend with Europe, then hell with you then! There are a lot of other blocs and countries in the world we could cooperate with... You are not alone in the world, thanks God...
Of course, you could continue surround us with unfriendly puppet regimes, you could move your fleet to the Black sea or NATO troops closer to our borders, you could continue your expansionisme, enlarging you 'soft European empire'... We are not scared as THE WORLD HAS CHANGED and the balance of power is also changing very rapidly. Russia will not follow you in your 19th centuty mentality, as other new threats are more important for us. (China, terror, ulra-Muslim insurgency etc).. You need us desperately to counter those new threats, we do not need you in that! That is the point!
Just continue your geopolitical games, your provocations, continue insulting and persecuting us in Baltic states, Ukraine, Geogia. We shall survive and one day you will understand that you spent so much efforts in vain and then...you will wake and we shall become friends....(I am a bit pathetic here, though...LOL!).
We love you despite anything and it is amusing for us to see your childish games. After all, Russia is a part of Europe, or may be what has remained of the true Europe. Hugs to all of you. Sergue. Moscow.
For sure, I think there has been some Rusophobia in some of the comments above. But I don't think you are going to be taken seriously when you come out with statements such as:
The truth is that thanks to the position of Russia the countries like Georgia and Ukraine gained their independence in 1990-1991.
Are you aware how they gained independence?
On April 9, 1989, a peaceful demonstration in the Georgian capital Tbilisi ended in a massacre in which several people were killed by Soviet troops. Eventually they got elections and the opposition won. By 1991 Georgia declared independence, and then after a democratic-ish election and government was formed only to suffer a coup shortly afterwards.
Ever since then there has been deep divisions in the region.
To describe the emergence of Georgia as something to do with Russia's kindliness is absurd.
Are you joking?
Dear Anonymous, unfortunately in Baltic countries, Georgia & the Ukraine Russophobia is the strongest. Notice that those are the least developped countries in Europe, their GNP is less than that when they were members of the USSR. They have no time to develop their economies, they have no brains to benifit from a very big, rich & "dobryi" brother like Russia, instead, they are looking, day & night, to find an old grave of a Soviet soldier just to turn it in side out. This generation doesn't want to understand anything except that god hides his all angels among the stars of the American flag. SUCKERshvili admitted that he started the August war, Kachinsky declaired that SUCKERshvili orchestrated the pathetic shooting, Bush said no Georgia or Ukraine in NATO soon, but still they installed Bush on god's place in their churches & put Putin & his team under the horns of devil in all their nightmares. You know what? screw them & their beliefs, future & wealth are in Russian hands, those jerks will soon be crawling on their bellies, wiping the dust from each brick of the beautiful red square, begging for forgivness wheat & a little bit of oil.
From the "good" old days
On the occasion of the anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution, a meeting of Party members is held in a village. The Chairman of the local Soviet gives a speech,
"Dear comrades! Let's look at the amazing achievements of our Party after the revolution. For example, here sits Maria. Who was she before? An illiterate peasant woman, she had but one dress and no shoes. And now? She is an exemplary milkmaid known over the entire region. Or look at Ivan Andreev. He was the poorest man in this village, had no horse, no cow, and even no axe. And now? He is a tractor driver, and has two pairs of shoes! Or look at Trofim Semenovich Alekseev. He was a nasty hooligan, a lowest drunkard, a dirty gadabout. Nobody trusted him even with a snowdrift in wintertime, as he would steal anything his gaze fell upon. And now he's a Secretary of the Party Committee!"
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An university Professor of Folklore asked his students, "Do you believe that with time anecdotes are being reevaluated?"
"Yes. They used to give for an anecdote fifteen years, and now they give only three."
--------------------------------
A man walked into the district committee of the Communist Party and said, "I wish to join the Party. Where should I start?"
"Visit a Psychiatrist."
-----------------------------------
In a school, a survey was a conducted among the students. One of the questions was "Would you suggest a classification of Soviet citizens in accordance with any criterion you may choose?"
The son of a KGB officer answered: 'There are three categories of Soviet people, namely, 1) those who have already been to prison; 2) those who are now in prison, and 3) those who will be in prison."
------------------------------------
In a prison, two inmates share their experience.
"What did they arrest you for?" one of them asks. "Was it a political or common crime?"
"Of course political. I'm a plumber. They summoned me to the district Party committee to fix the sewage pipes. I looked and said, 'Hey, the entire system requires replacement.' So, they gave me seven years."
Jesus tells us: Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.Luke 12:37 7,500,000 barrels per day is the upside. cycling, biking, etc.
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