Evidence mounts that the visit of presidents of Poland and Georgia to a disputed area on the South Ossetia border on Sunday, was designed to increase the tension in the region.
Georgians, not Russians were behind the now infamous shooting incident.
In fact, the Saakashvili presidency has been accused, even by one of its own members, of planning attacks on sepratist regions in August this year. This crisis was not the immediate cause of a “Russian” invasion anywhere, let alone South Ossetia: it was the result of a petulant Sakkashvili, easily provoked by Moscow.
The shooting incident on Sunday, when president of Georgia and Poland, went to the de facto border between Georgia and South Ossetia - and an area that was once in Tbilisi’s hands before the August war - appears, according to the Polish security service, BOR, to have been a set up by Presidents Saakashvili and his Polish friend. A report for the government says that Polish security forces became separated from the presidents’ car. When the first of three bursts of automatic fire began, Georgian commanders at the scene did not flinch, did not react. It was almost as if they were expecting the gunfire. Saakashvili was reported by BOR to have been smiling!
The accusation by even Polish officials that this was a set up by the Georgian side - and not the Russians as Kaczynski and Saakashvili have both alleged - does two things. It hands over to the Kremlin a propaganda victory - people will begin to believe Putin much more than they will a Kaczynski or a Saakashvili, or a Bush; it also gives the excuse to Moscow to ratchet up the bullyboy tactics in the Caucuses, and weakens any principled stand against them.
Many are coming to the conclusion that Poland’s president’s obsession with the region is helping make the place more unstable. If rule one of foreign policy is: ’Do no harm’, then Kaczynski is failing the test.
We should not join President Kaczynski or anyone else - like George W. Bush - in trying to make out that Saakashvili is some kind of super-patriot, fighting a lone battle against the evil empire of Russia. The reality is that both politicians - from Georgia and Poland - are more interested in a “crusade” against the Kremlin, for reasons best known to themselves. The rest of us should not be joining in on this vanity project.
Georgians, not Russians were behind the now infamous shooting incident.
In fact, the Saakashvili presidency has been accused, even by one of its own members, of planning attacks on sepratist regions in August this year. This crisis was not the immediate cause of a “Russian” invasion anywhere, let alone South Ossetia: it was the result of a petulant Sakkashvili, easily provoked by Moscow.
The shooting incident on Sunday, when president of Georgia and Poland, went to the de facto border between Georgia and South Ossetia - and an area that was once in Tbilisi’s hands before the August war - appears, according to the Polish security service, BOR, to have been a set up by Presidents Saakashvili and his Polish friend. A report for the government says that Polish security forces became separated from the presidents’ car. When the first of three bursts of automatic fire began, Georgian commanders at the scene did not flinch, did not react. It was almost as if they were expecting the gunfire. Saakashvili was reported by BOR to have been smiling!
The accusation by even Polish officials that this was a set up by the Georgian side - and not the Russians as Kaczynski and Saakashvili have both alleged - does two things. It hands over to the Kremlin a propaganda victory - people will begin to believe Putin much more than they will a Kaczynski or a Saakashvili, or a Bush; it also gives the excuse to Moscow to ratchet up the bullyboy tactics in the Caucuses, and weakens any principled stand against them.
Many are coming to the conclusion that Poland’s president’s obsession with the region is helping make the place more unstable. If rule one of foreign policy is: ’Do no harm’, then Kaczynski is failing the test.
We should not join President Kaczynski or anyone else - like George W. Bush - in trying to make out that Saakashvili is some kind of super-patriot, fighting a lone battle against the evil empire of Russia. The reality is that both politicians - from Georgia and Poland - are more interested in a “crusade” against the Kremlin, for reasons best known to themselves. The rest of us should not be joining in on this vanity project.




43 comments:
beatroot said: "Georgians, not Russians were behind the now infamous shooting incident."
What's your basis for this grotesque distortion of reality the Moscow Press Club or their fellow travellers?
Got some proof, lets see it.
Have you not been reading or seeing the news? It is now the Polish side which is saying that this was a Georgian "provocation".
So I really do not see why you think otherwise...where have you got the impression that it was a Russian provocation? The two main witnesses, to my knowledge, that have alleged that the shooting was from Ossetian side and that it was "Russian" forces that did it, are Kaczynski and Sakashvili.
Nothing you have raised has altered the reality of a checkpoint being present in an area, which Russia had agreed to withdraw from, and signed a document to that effect. Therefore they are not in compliance with the cease-fire agreement. Something the EU is desperately trying to ignore.
beatroot said: “the Polish side”
I genuinely believe you don’t have the foggiest idea of what the Polish side is. Poland’s fate is linked with Georgia’s fate. The return of the Russian Empire is a direct treat to Poland. The “Polish side” you refer to are traitors under the control of the Russian security services such people exist at every level in Polish society.
beatroot said: “Georgia's former ambassador to Moscow Wednesday accused Tbilisi of planning for a war”
You site a man who is likely a traitor to his country or a victim of black mail as your source for the Georgians starting the war but yet you ignore the evidence of an entire Russian army on the move simultaneously with the onset of Ossetian provocations.
Russia remains the sole perpetrator of all the outrageous that have occurred in this region.
Jannowak57 said: The “Polish side” you refer to are traitors under the control of the Russian security services such people exist at every level in Polish society.
Oh dear!!!
In what deluded world do you live? You are saying that a significant amount ofPoles are controlled by Moscow. - Come on!! This is beyond belief.
It was obvious froma casual observer that things did not add up in the official Georgian/Polish storry presented by the Presidents. In the last post you failed to acknowledge the glarring holes in the evidence. The security operation was not carried out properly full stop. The only answer for this was that the Georgians had some alterior motive. Your agrument suggests that the KGB/FSB some how control the Georgian Presidential security team.
Jan - your line is of course the one that Jaroslaw was trotting out yesterday. "the Russian lobby" etc.
Are you sure these are just lurid fantacies and can you provide some..you know...evidence that BOR is overrun with Ruskis?
K-ski & S-ili = Dumb and Dumber.
Give these guys their own comedy show already, heh?
57, just when I started thinking there was some reasonableness in you along with your smarts, you cast your lot in with these clowns and all your arguments about the Russians (many of which have firm foundation) get undermined.
jannowak57:
ROTFL! Where do you live ? What kind of news source do you use ? Radio Maryja, TV Trwam ? Do you really believe in famous "układ" ? If you do, than count me in it.
First news I got about whole incident was from Panorama - PiS "owned" public tv news. My first impression was: our President is a fool if he allows being forced in such a situation and blame Russians, just because someone was using russian language (as about 90% of people in that area) and next - this is some kind of set up.
I was not watching "russian controlled" TVN or any other news source discriminated by people like you. It was "proper" state owned TV, but still, those were my impressions. This all looks like a very amateur provocation aimed to drag Kaczynski (and Poland, than UE) into situation which is not that clear as you may seam. Russians are not that stupid to open fire to a presidents car, giving world a proof that there are russian troops where they should not be. And look at the report - why was whole Sakashvili and his security acting so weird ? This clearly is not a russian thing - it all looks like Georgians are behind it.
Oh, and before you ask - I am to young to be a russian spy - I was 10 when "Poland was sold" during Round Table negotiations.
Tnere was a guy on TVN 24 - the Russian controlled media - saying that though it was not a Georgian provocation it was a Georgian "improvisation" which is probably closer to it.
This whole thing is fishier than a Polish Christmas.
@Jannowak57 said...
Russia remains the sole perpetrator of all the outrageous that have occurred in this region.
I don't know, Stalin was Georgian and i'm sure he might have perpetrated an outrage or two in the area. Anyway, it's not the Russians you have to believe, it's Polish people who are saying this. But they're all traitors yeah??
So lets start again because you people just don’t get it:
What a flimsy argument to make when you base your conclusions on the following :
A)The Georgian and Polish security operation was flawed, these guys aren’t the US Secret Service and there is a vast difference in resources and training.
B)Sakashvili was acting weird because he didn’t have an emotional breakdown or piss his pants (a liberal’s reaction to gun fire)
C)The press are in the first vehicles, that’s a good one. In nearly all media events the arrival of the dignitaries is photographed, video taped or commented on in the backdrop of the arrival. This fucking well requires the media to arrive first.
This isn’t rocket science the plan was to confront the Russians at the checkpoint with the media in tow and get publicity. It seems the Russians had the presence of mind to prevent this show from going any further and they fired a burst into the air from an assault rifle to make people go away.
In Europe during the days of the cold war the KGB could buy a newspaper article, yes pay a journalist to write a specific story for them often for less than $100 USD. Today it costs the FSB a little more and in Euros.
Ones age is not an assurance of loyalty to Poland.
“the Russian lobby" or agents of influence – The Russians maintain such people in all areas of Polish society including some deputies of the Polish parliament which receive Russian money.
Today there continues to stand a checkpoint on Georgian territory, which the Russians refuse to withdraw from. They signed an agreement saying they would. In order to have business as usual with the Russians much of old Europe has turned a blind eye to this.
There is only one issue here the Russians must be made to comply with what they signed.
the Russian lobby" or agents of influence – The Russians maintain such people in all areas of Polish society including some deputies of the Polish parliament which receive Russian money...
EASY TO SAY, OF COURSE...LIKE jEWS WERE BEHIND 9/11...BUT LET'S HAVE A LITTLE EVIDENCE, EH?
Take a look at this article; it illustrates a clear example of the methods that are used. The Russians pay for some of the worst elements in Polish society. Here they buy themselves an anti-Semitic moron who does their bidding and generates anti-Polish attitudes in the west simultaneously. Is it a coincidence that many such groups also push a pro-Russia policy?
http://anti-fascist-ea.livejournal.com/
Mateusz Piskorski I know about, but I really don;t think he - or samoobrona - prove anything at all, except that a bunch of stalinists can be, and frequently were, bigots of the first order.
Still would like to know how BOR is full of Putinites...
beatroot said: “Mateusz Piskorski I know about, but I really don’t think he - or samoobrona - prove anything at all, “
It demonstrates one of the methods used by the FSB to gain influence; the bigger problems are with the ones who have yet to be identified. Those who have been bribed or are victims of blackmail.
beatroot said: “Still would like to know how BOR is full of Putinites...”
They came forward with conclusions based on an investigation that took less then 24 hours, done in Warsaw. Sure sounds like a little bit of political pressure was added to get a desired result. I know of no western country were an investigation into such a matter would have been done in such a fashion.
This government report released today seems to indicate that this incident was the result of incompetence all around. There didn't seem to be an attempt on the president's life, but that seemed clear as details of this were revealed.
The information revealed in Dziennik regarding the ABW report and accusing the Georgians of staging this incident were circumstantial, and could be the result of said incompetence - which simply wouldn't surprise me.
Additionally, that report has not been confirmed, and was leaked to the press very soon after the incident - seemingly sooner than it would take to prepare a proper, comprehensive report.
Add to that the current animosity between the ABW and PiS (and the PiS-backed CBA and the ABW), and it looks like the report in Dziennik was designed to make Kaczynski look like a rash fool. Though that he may be, it's not because the Georgians organized this incident.
The point is: Doesn't this seem to anyone else, as it does to me, that this was probably some drunk south ossetian border guard trying to show his stuff by shooting his gun off in the air when the presidential motorcade went by?
Starting this incident serves nobody's interests - why would the Russians raise tensions in the region and give the US and others more reason to "encircle" them - as they fear so desperately? On the other hand, what does raising tension in the region serve the Saakashvili or Kaczynski regimes? Neither has the resources to fight Russia, and some stray bullets are hardly the thing to mobilize EU and US opinion towards a confrontation with Russia (Neither is a confrontation with Russia in either's interest).
No doubt, both sides have taken the opportunity to use the incident to their own political ends, but that either side organized this fiasco I find difficult to believe.
that this was probably some drunk south ossetian border guard trying to show his stuff
this was what I intially thought. Since then a narrative has been wound round this event to try and gain political advantage by maybe both sides...oppotunism.
But the result has not been a positive for people of the region. What is the point of a foreign policy that increases tentions?
The Russians allowed the Georgians to invade. They certainly knew they were going to invade. Their eventual response, showed they were mobilized and ready to make a statement. The statement is that they are a regional power.
The statement to Poland is don't rely on the US for help.
<> Neither has the resources to fight Russia, and some stray bullets are hardly the thing to mobilize EU and US opinion towards a confrontation with Russia (Neither is a confrontation with Russia in either's interest).
<> What is the point of a foreign policy that increases tentions?
--> Publicity. The assumption on the part of Dumb and Dumber that they would make the Russians look bad. Why proceed to make an analysis from the assumption that Dumb and Dumber are intelligently rational?
Ten BOR agents were taken to hospital after a Russian-made Peugot overtook a Jewish-driven DAF delivery truck near Poznań this morning in another operation that has all the hall-marks of a yadda yadda yadda....
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80273,6000995,Zderzenie_autobusu_z_ciezarowka__ranni_m_in__pracownicy.html?skad=rss
Hey 57, it looks like it was BOR that made the statements about the reporters being in the front of the motorcade being suspicious:
"The Polish security service analysts also said the fact that Georgian authorities let the bus with reporters run ahead of the motorcade was suspicious, apparently meant to enable reporters to be the first at the scene of the incident."
<> C)The press are in the first vehicles, that’s a good one. In nearly all media events the arrival of the dignitaries is photographed, video taped or commented on in the backdrop of the arrival. This fucking well requires the media to arrive first.
This isn’t rocket science the plan was to confront the Russians at the checkpoint with the media in tow and get publicity.
To help enlighten the apologists, the miss guided and Moscow’s fellow travellers here is a portion of an article that gives a detailed analysis of the regional situation
The Truth About Russia in Georgia
“A key tool that the Soviet Union used to keep its empire together,” Worms said to me, “was pitting ethnic groups against one another. They did this extremely skillfully in the sense that they never generated ethnic wars within their own territory. But when the Soviet Union collapsed it became an essential Russian policy to weaken the states on its periphery by activating the ethnic fuses they planted.
“They tried that in a number of countries. They tried it in the Baltic states, but the fuses were defused. Nothing much happened. They tried it in Ukraine. It has not happened yet, but it's getting hotter. They tried it in Moldova. There it worked, and now we have Transnitria. They tried it in Armenia and Azerbaijan and it went beyond their wildest dreams and we ended up with a massive, massive war. And they tried it in two territories in Georgia, which I'll talk about in a minute. They didn't try it in Central Asia because basically all the presidents of the newly independent countries were the former heads of the communist parties and they said we're still following your line, Kremlin, we haven't changed very much.”
The complete article can be found here:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php
It remains clear that no matter what distortions or dispersions the liberal left throws at the forces resisting Russian imperialism, three unalterable facts exist:
Russia is the aggressor
Russia cannot be trusted
Russia must be resisted
To help enlighten the apologists, the miss guided and Moscow’s fellow travellers
So which one of the above am I, pal?
Russia's foreign policy is one of trying to get their self respect back after the Yeltsin years. The way they have decided to do that, sadly, is to try and push their weight about in the region. Not good. At all.
But Russia's new found confidence is based on an economic recovery based on oil and gas prices being high, and the more stable atmostphere of a Putin, and all his dodgy methods for acheiving that stability.
But that is a fragile confidence if it based on the price of oil, now that it grovles down the bottom of the 50 dollar barrel.
So, watch Russia get a little more cooperative next year...they are gonna need help through this economic downturn.
That said, believing Russia is behind everything in your country is fantacist and you fail to give any real evidence of it.
beatroot said: “That said, believing Russia is behind everything in your country is fantacist and you fail to give any real evidence of it.”
If you are unsure as to extent of Russian activities in Poland you can ask one of your acquaintances who I believe is much more able to answer your questions than I. Also ask about Poland’s capability to counter these activities.
I don’t believe I said they were behind everything.
Regarding your question pal, you still need to answer my question?
If you are unsure as to extent of Russian activities in Poland you can ask one of your acquaintances...
Um...who the f... are you talking about? I don't think that remark for was called for and you can send me an email if you have anything of substance to back it up. And that is one email that I will not be holding my breath for....stop bullshiting.
Three topics back on this blog you stated that you posted an article at the request of a journalist called David Dastych, unless I am horribly mistaken is this man not well known for his articles and books on security and intelligence issues. Get the facts for yourself before you do the usual knee-jerk reaction.
Again several topics back the question you didn’t answer was: Do you except any expenditure or effort to provide a meaningful national defence for Poland as legitimate?
Well, I don;t think he would go along with the notion that the hidden hand of Russia was a major player in Polish foreign policy...as you seem to be saying, although now backing off from a bit.
As for defence policy and expenditure, a sovereign nation can do what it likes and spend as much as it thinks it needs on defence. Nothing wrong with that. If you are talking about anti-missile shield I think it is a waste of time and effort under the terms in which it is being, or might be employed - i.e. as a defence against "rogue states". Anti-missile shield is meant to be part of the "war on terror" which has been misconceived from the very beginning and which I do not support.
Why don’t you ask him to write a short article on the issue for this blog in terms of what the current state of affairs is? The question being how much of an effort is being made by the Russians in terms of espionage, subversion and placing agents of influence into the internal political process in Poland. And of course are Polish security services coping with the problem. It would be interesting to see what level of concern he has.
Or perhaps he already has a current article we can refer to.
Also thank you for answering my question, it was intended in the broader sense.
It does sound like an interesting article. The last he sent about anything near this subject is here.
http://www.wprost.pl/ar/136495/Na-stronie-Pieski-Moskwy/?O=136495&K=1&KI=58355
Unlike the US?:
<> the Russians in terms of espionage, subversion and placing agents of influence into the internal political process in Poland.
ge'ez said...“Unlike the US?:”
Comparatively minor, at best amateur hour at the Ok Choral. The US has backed off from human intelligence efforts during the Cold War in favour of a high tech approach and only since 911 has tried to correct this mistake. The resources have principally gone into the War on Terror vs. anything else. The US and the British have aided in the training of security services in Poland.
So you're saying that the Russkies buying off the likes of Lepper is major as opposed to minor league? Seems to me you should be happy they're wasting their money. If I were them, I'd be giving money to Kaczynski, too.
The answer is yes, I am happy they screwed up. But a foreign intelligence service got inside the government at cabinet level when Samobrona was in the coalition with Pis, that’s a big victory for any intelligence service.
Kaczynski being clumsy and inept at the best of time has still done real damage to the Russians and they will be very happy to see him go.
New topic
I see Hillary is about to be the secretary of state; I do suppose she has already dined in most of the capital cities of the world and therefore must be eminently qualified for the position. Of course our new president wouldn’t allow politics to trump qualifications in his cabinet choices.
What damage has K-ski done to the Russians? ISTM the cavalcade craziness made the Russians look good (maybe not good, but innocent even if they aren't) and reversed any damage he might have done previously.
Politics is politics. The day somebody gets elected, his/her primary concern becomes getting reelected. It could be worse than Hillary. Or maybe not. We'll see how much control he can exert over her.
Have I missed something or has the left been left out in the cold. Looks like his appointments have been either Clintonite retreads or real mainstream types. It looks like he doesn’t even plan to invite any lefty radicals to visit the Whitehouse as tourists.
Only a little less than 50% of Americans think Hillary is a commie and the spawn of Satan.
Vanity Fair's Christopher Hitchens vs. Salon's Joan Walsh on why Hillary as Sec of State:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/01/christopher-hitchens-batt_n_147598.html
Interesting debate.
Beaky? Not too much for you to bear, I hope and pray.
Thank you, it's nice to read comments on a hot subject that resembles a discussion and not brainless caterwauling about what might or might not of happened during our grandparent's generation. I often give up about a third of the way through the comments in total disgust and start wondering where I can buy a gun ;)
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