Friday, December 15, 2006

Is the Suffolk Strangler a Pole?


Update Monday morning…Englishman arrested on suspicion of 5 murders in Suffolk… more here

Well, according to our old Polonia-phobic friend, the UK Daily Mail, someone from Poland is the main suspect.

Under the headline Strangler police hunt BMW Pole, the Mail reports that Suffolk police are looking for a BMW driving ‘Eastern European’ who works on a farm near where the body of one of the murdered women was found.

One of the murder’s 5 victims (and maybe now a sixth - this story gets nastier everyday), Anneli Alderton, was last seen getting into a BMW.

A witness spoke to the Daily Mail anonymously:

"I noticed the [Eastern European’s] BMW parked on a dirt track and because it matched the description of the car the police were looking for and because it was so close to where the bodies were found, I tried to find out who it belonged to.

"I spoke to someone who knows the owner of the car and he isn't around at the moment.

"I phoned the police and a forensic team was sent down to examine the car. It might just be a coincidence but it was too obvious to ignore."

Last night the BMW was no longer parked on the track and there was no-one at the man's home, where the lights had been left on all day.

Not really much to go on here and the British media is rife with speculation at a time when police are sensibly keeping what evidence they have under raps.

The Daily Mail has been leading a (successful) campaign (here or here or here) against Romanian and Bulgarians being allowed to work in Britain when they join the EU in a few weeks time. They have been doing this by printing all sorts of negative stories about the catastrophic effect of having so many Poles and others from CEE in Britain.

Call me a cynic but isn’t it a bit strange that this ‘exclusive’ report pinning the blame on a Pole just happens to brake in the Mail?

And do I get the impression the Daily Mail, which has led the eastern European scare campaign in Britain, would love it if the apparent serial killer just happened to come from one of the countries that they see has been ‘swamping’ their green and pleasant land with immigrants?

More
Turning murder into reality TV, Spiked

55 comments:

Jannovak57 said...

Lots of positives here, firstly we have a Polish farm labourer driving a BMW…. life is good for our people in the UK. Next busload on the way. This story also debunks the claims we’re taking all the jobs; none of the prostitutes were Polish girls.

Aren’t they still trying to pin that Jack the Ripper business on us?

Martin said...

Beatroot,

This might shock you coming from me, but what the 'Mail's' done is entirely irresponsible.

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, right now every known pervert within 100 km of Ipswich with a childhood history of hurting small animals will be being hauled in to account for their whereabouts.

It is on the main road from the coast to the Midlands - they could be in Inverness by now and nobody would be any the wiser.

Obviously, given it has a high migrant population then informing Interpol is a good idea - if the killer has left any DNA then provided they're on record somewhere it would just be a matter of time before they're tracked down.

For the purposes of argument, say a Pole is responsible; what's the first thing a Pole seeing that's going to do? Run for it, if they haven't done so already.

This enquiry should not be leaking any information - with a red hot serial killer on the loose the Mail should know better than to report such details.

Jannovak57,

I wouldn't be so haughty about the criminality of Polish migrants in the UK. I collect offences committed in the UK by non-UK nationals like others collect stamps or butterflies; and my Poles are heavily skewed towards sex offences - about 80%, ranging from rape to flashing to quite gruesome paedophilia.

The remaining 20% are driving offences - limits on both speed and permissible alcohol levels seem to present particular issues. I've even got a Polish bus driver, Robert Botur, who was responsible for the death of a passenger because he forgot what side of the road he should have been driving on. Another Polish bus driver, Adam Zugaj, skipped bail after crashing his bus while drunk.

Let's not develop any illusions that the Poles in the UK are all angels.

nemeczek said...

Jannovak57 and Burak,
According to the British media, Jack the Ripper was Polish too! Google "Jack the Ripper" + Polish and you'll get numerous hits. Like this one:
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/topstories/display.var.834195.0.polish_barber_named_as_jack_the_ripper.php
IMHO, the bubonic plague, hail, the Great Fire of London, just to name a few, should also be reinvestigated... at least by the BNP or some other beacon of democracy.
The problem with Poles is that we care way too much about what foreigners think about our country. As if it mattered. Of course, if the Ipswich murderer turns out to be an immigrant, the knee-jerk reaction of the Daily Mail-fed readership will inevitably be harsh. For that reason alone, I do hope the monster was born and bred locally.
BTW, "collecting offences" is a very unusual hobby. Better than trainspotting, though..

Anonymous said...

Well it's ages since I have been here:-)

But I do read the scarey Mail - err sometimes?

I guess we will have to see what happens - if it is a Pole - and I hope not - this will create a back lash here. Feelings are runninf high in the local area:-(

Sorry guys - but am being honest here

jannovak57 said...

Martin said: “collect offences committed “
Do I understand you correctly in that, you are collecting media reports on crimes committed by non-citizens and citizens alike in order to form an analysis of the sources of local crime?

Martin said...

No, I just collect examples of crimes committed in the UK by foreigners.

The citizens - rather native-born citizens- can do whatever they like; however for foreigners to be admitted and then go on to commit crime constitutes a dilution of my citizenship.

Even got a Mongolian in there.

beatroot said...

Martin: On your….er… hobby. I would be very interested for a breakdown of your figures. How many Poles have got themselves in the papers, including speeding offenses?

Then take that figure, divide it by the estimated amount of Poles in the UK (700,000? More?) and then could you come back and tell me the total.

Cheers mate.

Jan: you are right. BMW driving ram labouring Pole. Can’t be many of them. Farm labour must be a very lucrative position these days. Perhaps he got enough for a deposit collecting cockles and winkles on the beach in east anglia?

Nenczek. Indeed four of the Jack the Ripper suspects were Jeiwish Poles. But the accusations came amid wide spread anti-semitic panic that was going on in London at the time. So we can out the Daily Mail report in the context of the new anti-immigration panic going on in UK now.

Anon: what is a nice guy like you doing reading pap like the curtain twitch , blue rinse DM?

Brad Zimmerman said...

If other countries in the EU got into an uproar every time a British person got in trouble while travelling or working abroad then England would probably be as isolated as North Korea by now.

Yes, it would be a bit damaging for Poland if it turns out to be a Pole. Fortunately or not, the cat's outta the bag at this point and the UK is going to be restricting the 2007 EU members' emigration, so...

Oh and driving a Pole driving a BMW? Lemme guess... late 80's, a bit beat-up, tips on the exhaust and hasn't seen a bath in well over a couple months.

The person driving it ...military-style short hair or none at all. Mid-20's. Quite possibly wearing a Lonsdale jacket or anything that looks "aggressive". Listening to loud, bad music. Favours crappy beer like Warka. :)

beatroot said...

Welcome Brad. Did you consider changing your second name to Dylan?

If the Pole in the 80s BMW has shaved hair and likes warka then he may be the wrong person.

There is a report of a description of a fat geezer with bushy brown hair, about 30 years old.
parked in a blue BMW outsider a massage parlour in Ipswich and ‘acting suspiciously’. He is one of the five suspects the police are looking for.

Martin said...

Brad,

Don't know anything about this place called 'England' you refer to.

Does it have any connection with the United Kingdom?

Where's your evidence for your assertion that,

"If other countries in the EU got into an uproar every time a British person got in trouble while travelling or working abroad then England would probably be as isolated as North Korea by now."

Names? Cases? Sentences?

Beatroot,

All can be found here -

http://www.theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/

Make sure you read this - it's the groundrules - they're slightly more even handed than you might imagine, and any verifiable data you'd be able to send me would be welcome -

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/03/note-from-curator.html

Nemeczek,

Perhaps collecting instances of crimes committed in the UK by non-UK nationals is an odd hobby - it's one that might even become popular in Poland, once it starts importing and not exporting people - but certainly more wholesome than those of Polish serial killers like Julian Koltun, Zdzisław Marchwicki, Władysław Mazurkiewicz, Stanisław Modzelewski, Leszek Pękalski and Łucjan Staniak.

beatroot said...

Martin, I find your Black Museum disturbing, although for slightly different reasons than probably you do.

But anyway…I still can’t quite get my head round why you are doing this in the first place.

For instance the few Poles you include in this ‘Museum’ - and it is statistically ‘a few’ out of a total statistical population of maybe 700,000, probably more – represents WHAT exactly?

I would be more statistically surprised if there were not ANY Poles in your ‘Museum’.

One entry in your fascinating obsession maybe shows a little more about your prejudices than it does about Poles. Under the entry about pervert Tomasz Rupinski you quote the judge who sentenced him as saying:

It is in my experience of Polish people that they were more courteous and correct with women than the average Scottish male".

Then you way in with:

Sheriff McCreadie's previous contributions to Scottish penology have been more likely to make the entertainment pages than the law books.

Perhaps the cases of Sylwester Dymowski and Josef Zygmunt Kurek have not yet come to his attention.


Martin. Try actually talking to a few Polish women. They will tell you that they feel much safer in Polish cities than they do in the UK. There is much less street crime and attacks on women here than in the UK.

For instance, though statistically there are a similar amount of murders in Warsaw per capita as say London, most murderes are gang on gang. Strangers are much less involved than in London.

Women will also tell you that there is a lingering, if old fashioned, gentlemanly behaviour here, which you do not find in Scotland, sadly.

What you are doing with your strange Museum is taking a few cases of criminal behaviour and generalizing them to a whole statistical population.

That is simply illogical and prejudice and something I would expect from the BNP (or the Daily Mail) and not from an intelligent human being.

nemeczek said...

Martin:
Sure, we Poles have our fair share of serial killers. From the ones you mentioned I am only familiar with the Marchwicki case. However, as far as I can remember, there are serious doubts regarding Marchwicki's involvement in the rapes/murders for which he was ultimately executed. One of the victims was related to some communist apparatchik, so the Party put enormous pressure on the Milicja to find the killer. The Polish serial killers, in terms of the number of victims, are no match to other perpetrators I am familiar with (Dr. Shipman, Fred West and his lovely wife, the Yorkshire Ripper). As an avid chess player, I find this Russian guy particularly disturbing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6183561.stm
To get a balanced view, it would be prudent to compare two crime rates, i.e., the one that reflects crimes committed by foreigners with the one that reflects crimes in which foreigners are victims (not sure what to do with foreigner-on-foreigner crimes, though). Besides, I do not believe the local population are (is?) entitled to breaking the law any more than the foreigners are. Of course, it is better for the foreigners to ‘behave themselves’ as some natives simply do not like them to begin with.

beatroot said...

Wiki previous Polish serial killers

Julian Koltun (born in 1950) was a Polish serial killer.

Between 1980 and 1981 he is thought to have killed women and attacked others in several farming communities in Poland. He was sentenced to life in prison for these crimes.

Wladyslaw Mazurkiewicz (1911 - January 31, 1957) was a Polish serial killer who lived in the city of Cracow (Kraków) Poland and at the same time also had property in the capital city of Warsaw.
He was nicknamed the "gentleman killer", the police charged him with at least 30 murders of women. He confessed to everything, by saying "Yes, that's true."

Stanislaw Modzelewski (b. 1918) was a Polish serial killer active in Łódź, Poland during the 1960s. He murdered seven women aged 19 to 87 by strangling them with scarf or bare hands. He also tried to murder 6 other women. He stole some insignificant items from his victims just to abandon them afterwards. His murders had probably sexual background. He was executed in 1970.

Leszek Pękalski (born 12 February 1966 in Osieki near Bytów in Poland) is a Polish serial killer. He is believed to have killed at least 17 people between 1984 and 1992.

He was sentenced to life imprisonment and is (2005) still serving the sentence in a prison in Poland.

Łucjan Staniak, a serial killer from Poland, was convicted of murdering six women from 1964 until his arrest in 1967. He confessed to a total of 20 murders (this number, however, is disputed as being coerced by detectives). He was dubbed The Red Spider by the press, a nickname derived from his correspondence with the police and news media scribbled with red ink.

Note that none are contemporary

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

My girlfriend also says there were a series of murders in the Mokotow district of Warsaw early 1990s (where I live) . The murderer’s nickname was ‘Lomiarz’, because he burgeoned to death maybe 9 or 10 elderly women with a crowbar (Lom).

mullet said...

When i first came across this post...i was dying to see martins response!

So some bmw driving pole is apparently the hot suspect at the mo....it's a coincidence, martin!

Please don't tell me that this is proof of why no immigrants should get in?

Martin said...

Well guys, that got you going...

Beatroot,

The reason I do this is very straightforward. As a British citizen and taxpayer resident in Britain who was given no say as to whether or not the EU should be expanded to include the A8 accession nations, and whose economic interests do not seem to have been considered in the decison to allow open migration, yet who must bear the cost of detecting those crimes perpetrated by A8 nationals and the subsequent cost of their imprisonment, don't I have a right to be pissed off?

Are facts to be ignored, crimes committed, victims created and costs incurred and, in some cases, lives lost without any kind of debate as to whether or not such the existence of migrant-perpetrated crime should be included in the migration debate?

Or is this just to be swept under the carpet, and critics of migration just to shut up about the fact, Beatroot, the fact, that migrants commit serious crimes?

What you say about the safety of Poland's streets might be perfectly true; however, it begs three questions -

1. If Poland's streets are so safe why are so many Polish women in Britain?

2. Might British streets be safer without perverts like Thomasz Rupinski on them?

3. Could part of the reason Poland's streets are safe is because a tranche of Poland's perverts have headed west?

You write,

"Women will also tell you that there is a lingering, if old fashioned, gentlemanly behaviour here, which you do not find in Scotland, sadly. "

What do you know about Scotland? When was the last time you were here? If I'm unqualified to criticise Poland what qualifications do you possess to criticise Scotland?

If memory serves you're a South Londoner of Geordie-Ulster extraction.

You write,

"What you are doing with your strange Museum is taking a few cases of criminal behaviour and generalizing them to a whole statistical population.

That is simply illogical and prejudice and something I would expect from the BNP (or the Daily Mail) and not from an intelligent human being. "

If you had bothered to read the second URL I posted, 'A Note from the Curator', you would have seen that -

1. I make absolutely clear that it is not intended to be of any scientific value; and
2. Hold everyone to the same standard - if Brits are convicted of crimes overseas and I can find them, they go in. That's why David Irving, Gary Glitter, Victoria Sellers and Nicholas Baker are in there.

I've already invited you to send me any data you can find on Brits who've been convicted of crimes in Poland. Find it and I'll post it.

If you can find it in English, even better.

Now, can you please explain how any of the above relates to the proposition that Britishness derives from being white? Or that
race is the common factor that determines the existence of nationhood?

Can you?

You can't. Racial nationalism is a fallacy, based on bad history and worse science. Racial nationalism is the core of BNP policy - if you bothered to read any of my blogs, any of my archives you will have seen that I have always been one of the BNP's more consistent critics. Throwing out 'BNP' and 'Daily Mail' as attempts to close down debate you don't like is a lazy debating tactic, and one unworthy of a writer of your intelligence.

Want to see who's got the better equality credentials? Ever taken on the hardest of the hardcore racial differentialists,the 'race realists'? I have, time and time again. It reached the stage with them that I just gave up. Look through the early archives of 'The G-Gnome Rides Out' if you want evidence.

Nemeczek,

You write,

"I do not believe the local population are (is?) entitled to breaking the law any more than the foreigners are. Of course, it is better for the foreigners to ‘behave themselves’ as some natives simply do not like them to begin with. "

Your first point is a non sequitur. As to your second, well yes, it would have been better for Jeshma Raithatha had she not been raped and murdered by the Latvian Viktor Dembovskis, who had already served two sentences for rape in Latvia. It would have been better for Clare Bernal had she not been shot to death at her workplace by the Czech Michael Pech. It would no doubt have been better for the women Sylwester Dymoski raped had he not done so.

None of these crimes would have been committed, and Jeshma and Clare might still be alive, had a more careful migration policy been adopted.

Ultimately their killers were responsible for their murder - but their murders were facilitated by the British government's reckless
pursuit of open immigration.

Or are the lives of two young British women to be considered expendable in pursuit of the greater political good of saving businesses money?

And before anyone even mentions Angelika Kluk -

1. Before Angelika's murder the last murder to have been committed in a Scottish church which I have been able to find occurred in 1305 - Robert Bruce's murder of John Balliol in Dumfries

2. Her life might also have been saved by a more rigourous migration policy.

Mullet, hen, can you no' read?

I'm against publication of such details as those the 'Mail' posted.

mullet said...

i cannae read you marty...i'll lay off the buckie!

beatroot said...

Martin: I make absolutely clear that it is not intended to be of any scientific value…

I did read that bit, actually. If it has no scientific value then all you are doing is the equivalent of the Daily Mail – scaremongering.

And believe me – the fear factor in Polish streets is nothing like in the UK. That’s a cultural thing. It’s also based on women’s perception of risk. People are not so paranoid in Poland…yet.

As to why so many women are in the UK….come on….so many women move to the UK BECAUSE THEY CAN. And in Poland, doing things because you can is a very strong motive to do them. Wasn’t always like that, Mart.

And Poles pay tax and are not welfare cheats (unlike many Brits) so they are contributing to the policing of the UK.

As to the Now, can you please explain how any of the above relates to the proposition that Britishness derives from being white? Or that
race is the common factor that determines the existence of nationhood?
…..

…it wasn’t me who said that….

Martin said...

Beatroot,

If I was in the business of scaremongering, I would do it properly.

1. I would focus my attention on the criminal proclivities of one particular group. I do not do this.

2. I would not post stories of crimes committed by Brits abroad. You have now been invited twice to provide data on crimes committed by Brits in Poland, specifically so that the perps can go in The Black Museum - you've not yet done so, so I assume it's thin on the ground.

Keep Googling.

You haven't answered any of my points concerning costs. I wouldn't mind so much about this if there were some convention in place for the costs incurred in detecting crimes committed by foreign nationals, and those incurred by their imprisonment, to be recouped from their country of origin's government - but the USA, whose nationals are just as heavily represented in The Black Museum as Poland's, would never buy it.

As far as the argument that 'they can' is concerned, that they weren't able to do so beforehand is really no concern of mine. So Poles oppressed other Poles for 45 years - what is that to me? Really?

Why should my three young Irish-Polish-Lithuanian nieces face future competition in the job market, and their lifetime earning capacities be diminished, because Tony Blair said 'OK, we'll have open doors'? What right did he have to gamble with their futures?

Not so long ago, it was reported that Clackmannanshire Council was spending £50,000 on remedial English classes for the children of migrants whose parents have resettled them without first ensuring they can speak the language. That money doesn't come out of thin air, Beatroot - that's on my tab; so not only will those kids be my nieces' competition, but I'm forced to subsidise the competition by teaching them English.

How is that fair on them? Or their parents?

Praising Poles for paying tax is an idiotarian argument, akin to praising tenants for paying rent; and the issue of how many Poles are working in the UK while claiming the dole in Poland is, shall we say, a live one -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/11/polands-culture-of-black-market.html

If we really want to get into the 'Poles pay tax and thus contribute to the cost of policing argument', let's go for it.

Not so long ago, Beatroot, I posted you a barrel-load of links on how mass migration into the UK is suppressing wage inflation (keeping Brits poorer) and increasing native unemployment (displacement).

The counterpoint to your argument 'But Poles pay tax etc' is quite straightforward - Polish migration is depressing native British wages and displacing British workers; it is therefore only logical to assume that the tax take would be higher were migration to be limited.

Any faulty logic there?

And BTW, for the 'Poles pay tax' argument to be valid, every Pole working in the UK must have an NI number and be paying tax.

Willing to bet that's the case? After all, out of 700,000 there might be a few bad apples.

So Poles might not be making such a big contribution as is widely assumed...hmmm...

In respective of your selective quotation,

"Now, can you please explain how any of the above relates to the proposition that Britishness derives from being white? Or that
race is the common factor that determines the existence of nationhood?…..

…it wasn’t me who said that…. "

well, yes, it was you.

You had previously posted,

"That is simply illogical and prejudice and something I would expect from the BNP (or the Daily Mail) and not from an intelligent human being. "

You put me on the level of the BNP. That's what the BNP stands for - I don't.

Don't I have the right to argue when my views are being misrepresented?

beatroot said...

"Now, can you please explain how any of the above relates to the proposition that Britishness derives from being white? Or that
race is the common factor that determines the existence of nationhood?…..


Martin: that was not me who said that....

Hektor said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/6189409.stm

So, Police have arrested someone. Who, err, happens not to be Polish...

The Daily Mail is one of the most hateful newspapers on the Planet.

Michael Farris said...

Another for Martin's file on Brits abroad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/18/wgreek18.xml

Martin said...

Michael,

Sure she's a possibel.

If she's convicted.

Only convicts go in.

Will certainly keep an eye on the case.

Beatroot,

Slur by repetition and selective quotation isn't exactly the most morally serious of debating tactics.

You compared me to the BNP. I refuted you. You then selective quote something I've written.

And?

beatroot said...

marty. First of all I did not bring up whites and Britishness...that was someone else, agreed?

Second...I did not compare you to the BNP...what I said was that 'scaremongering'...which is what the 'Black Museum' does, is the type of thing that one would expect from the Mail or BNP.

A subtle but important dofference...

nemeczek said...

Martin,
You wrote:
"The citizens - rather native-born citizens - CAN DO WHATEVER THEY LIKE; however for foreigners to be admitted and then go on to commit crime constitutes a dilution of my citizenship".
Therefore, it is NOT 'non sequitur' to draw a conclusion that you do believe the local population's right to break the law is somewhat above the analogous right given to foreigners. I simply re-phrased your claim to demonstrate how absurd it was. The law does not exempt anybody from obeying it – nobody is, or at least should not be, above it.
I am ALMOST certain that the influx of foreigners did not make the life of an average Brit any more ‘dangerous’ than it had been in the old good days. The fear and dislike of the recent migrants has nothing to do with reason, but everything to do with the British, or more specifically, English tribalism. “He might be a thug, but at least he is one of us” kind of attitude. In fairness, this is common in most European nations (including Poland). In this respect, we could learn a lot from the people across the Pond.
Besides, emigration is a two-way street. As I recall, a recent study estimates that 5 million British citizens (i.e., ~10% of the total population) live and work abroad. Do they also 'dilute' citizenship of their hosts?

Martin said...

Beatroot,

Sorry, you're not getting away with this.

You said my behaviour was akin to that of the BNP. In my opinion, a reasonable reader exercising a reasonable degree of care and skill might assume from that that you are alleging I am a BNP supporter. I am not. My reference was to the BNP's platform and philosophy and how I disagree with it.

I have directed your readers to where they can find materials written by me on the subject of race which expicitly contracdict the BNP's philosophy. As a shorthand, here are a few links to some of them -

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/printer_10555.shtml

http://theggnomeridesout.blogspot.com/2005/04/g-gnome-is-parsed-by-cyber-klanners-of.html

http://theggnomeridesout.blogspot.com/2005/04/piece-of-whimsy-racial-iq-variations.html

http://theggnomeridesout.blogspot.com/2005/05/if-anybody-has-john-rhys-davies-e-mail.html

More recently,

http://devilskitchen.blogspot.com/2006/04/losing-working-class.html

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/09/blood-and-soil-brown.html

Nemeczek,

Thanks for the lecture on the importance of the rule of law - in 19 years of studying, practising and reading about law I hadn't quite got a handle on it.

But seeing as we're doing subtle and important differences today, you are comparing apples to oranges. Brits will commit crimes in Britain. This is deplorable. The jails are full. Pick your cliche.

Poles will commit crimes in Poland. This is deplorable. the jails are full, etc.

Do they have 'Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?' in Poland?

Let's say you've already gone 50-50.

What is the difference between Brits committing crimes in Britain and Poles committing crimes in Britain?

You can ask the audience or phone a friend...

The answer, of course, is that without the British government's unmandated policy of mass migration I would not now be bearing the tab for banging up assorted Polish bad boys.

That's the difference.

"The fear and dislike of the recent migrants has nothing to do with reason, but everything to do with the British, or more specifically, English tribalism. “He might be a thug, but at least he is one of us” kind of attitude. In fairness, this is common in most European nations (including Poland)"

Well I'm not English so I wouldn't know. As loathed and despised as the hated 'Daily Mail' is in these parts it is actually does quite a good job of pointing out British offending patterns.

Nice try about equating mass immigration with dilution of citizenship - however, that's not how it works. What has happened since May 1 2004 is unmandated. We have never been permitted to vote on it - its economic consequences, wage stagnation and displacement, did not begin to appear until after the General Election of 2005.

However, these alone does not constitute dilution of citizenship. That happens when those who have been given the Golden Ticket to live in somebody else's country abuse it by committing crimes. That's when the money levied from me and people like me to prevent and detect crimes in our communities gets diverted to detecting crimes that would not have been committed had a more conservative immigration policy been effected.

That's when the costs really start to bite.

And yes of course, if a British migrant or expatriate commits a crime outwith the UK then of course they are diluting their hosts' citizenship in the same way.

beatroot said...

The main premise of Martin’s ‘Black Museum’, I suppose, it to prove that because there are more immigrants in Britain then therefore there is more crime.

‘Crime’ of course can be defined in different ways. One definition would be how many offenses become known to the police. Of course this definition has the obvious problem that not all crime – or even a majority of crime is reported.

So that is why in Britain we have the British Crime Survey, which is based on sample questionnaires and other types of polling.

According to the 2005/6 BCS there were 10.9 million crimes committed over that 12 month period - a similar figure to 2004/5 and 8.4 million crimes less than ten years ago..

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/crime0506summ.pdf

Over the last ten years, and particularly over the last two years migration to the UK has increased significantly.

So the conclusion is pretty simple. There is no correlation between the rate of immigration and crime rates.

So the Black Museum is a waste of an intelligent persons time, Martin.

beatroot said...

Martin:you are alleging I am a BNP supporter...

I never said that at all. I said that

That is simply illogical and prejudice and something I would expect from the BNP (or the Daily Mail) and not from an intelligent human being. ...like yourself.

The sentence then clearly distinguishes between BNP and yourself. I never said that you were supporter of the BNP.

There - that's on record. MARTIN IS NOIT IN BNP...

nemeczek said...

Martin:
Sorry to learn that 19 years of your law education were to no avail...
If we assume that immigration should only be permitted when migrants commit NO crime whatsoever, then I can see your point. But wherever there are people, there is crime. It simply cannot be avoided. The Brits in Britain will only commit crime in Britain because that's where they are. The Britain's Poles do not commit crime in Poland because they are not there. I know it is plainly obvious, but I did feel the need to 'explain' it. The above scenario holds true for any community on this glorious planet of ours. What is your proposal, then? Banning migration across the globe because some migrant somewhere can one day commit a crime?
And it is not true you did not have a say in matters concerning the EU expansion and free flow of labor. You representatives in the Parliament, on your behalf, gave the green light to this idea. As a lawyer, you must agree that by proxy you did participate in the democratic process. You may not like the outcome, so the next time you vote, simply fire the guys who let you down.
As to your community having to pay for policing those migrants… well, those migrants ARE your community.

Martin said...

Beatroot,

Good. I'm glad we got the BNP slur out the way. It was hard work getting there, but worth it in the end.

But then we get to your other errors.

"The main premise of Martin’s ‘Black Museum’, I suppose, it to prove that because there are more immigrants in Britain then therefore there is more crime. "

No it's not, it'simply to list crimes committed in the UK by non-UK national and crimes committed by Brits overseas.

For the fourth time, Beatroot, as I bend over the keyboard weeping silent tears - DO..YOU..HAVE..ANY DATA..ON..BRITS..CONVICTED..OF..CRIMES..IN POLAND..AND..I .. WILL.. LIST THEM?

Parking tickets will bloddy well do, provided you can give me a hyperlink.

"‘Crime’ of course can be defined in different ways. One definition would be how many offenses become known to the police. Of course this definition has the obvious problem that not all crime – or even a majority of crime is reported. "

Nobody appears in The Black Museum unless they're convicted - the point at which both Scottish and English law deems their guilt established.

I can think of only one two who weren't convicted - Michael Pech, who committed suicide at the scene, and Mohammed Atta, who's in as an honorary.

My standards might be a bit higher than the British Crime Survey's.

And citing the British Crime Survey without any reference to factors such as changes in the methodology by which it's compiled is pointless - don't you agree?

"So the conclusion is pretty simple. There is no correlation between the rate of immigration and crime rates.

So the Black Museum is a waste of an intelligent persons time, Martin. "

Maybe aye, maybe no - but we can't tell.

As for it being a waste of time, Beatie, you're entitled to your opinion - to my mind there is no activity in the world more pointless than fishing.

Nemeczek,

Your opinions concerning the futility or otherwise of my studies and former career are of no interest to me whatsoever. Unless you are a lawyer there is a distinct possibility that my left testicle has forgotten more law than you will ever learn.

That aside, your comment does take rather a long time to crank up...a long, long time.....

You write,

"Banning migration across the globe because some migrant somewhere can one day commit a crime?"

That's absurd.

"And it is not true you did not have a say in matters concerning the EU expansion and free flow of labor. You representatives in the Parliament, on your behalf, gave the green light to this idea. As a lawyer, you must agree that by proxy you did participate in the democratic process. You may not like the outcome, so the next time you vote, simply fire the guys who let you down."

When we hold election in the UKs we do say on the basis of 'platform'; manifestos.

The expansion of the EU has never formed part of any party's platform.

We were deemed unworthy of consultation on the EU's expansion by referendum.

The open migration policy was not referred to Parliament, but was an executive decision.

So, no, we've never had a chance to vote on it - because as I said above, the 2005 General Election was fought before the negative effects of mass migration began to percolate through the economy...

Might be a diffrent story now.

nemeczek said...

Martin:
Ouch, you are ALMOST funny!
You wrote: "Thanks for the lecture on the importance of the rule of law - in 19 years of studying, practising and reading about law I hadn't quite got a handle on it."
After having read that, I simply tried to be sympathetic because I can imagine how difficult it must have been for you to acquire any knowledge. But you finally made! Or at least you can read and write.
However, I need to disappoint you - my interest in mental capacity of your testicles is none. Maybe in the future you could use some other part of your body (hint: think a bit higher!) to generate views on immigration. I am all for public whining but your arguments, although eloquently put together, lack coherence and substance. In my book, it IS a crime.

beatroot said...

Martin, you are missing the point. ‘Higher standards than the BCS’?

You seem to think that a crime is only an action that is charged and convicted in the courts.

So a rape that isn’t convicted isn’t a crime? A rape that isn’t reported to the cops isn’t a crime?

Don’t be silly. The whole point of the British Crime Survey is that it uncovers the REAL crime rate, not just the reported one (which of course is going to be a lower figure because a significant proportion of crimes ARE NOT REPORTED.

I would have thought this was obvious to a retired ‘crime professional.’

As regards the ‘slur’ – I never made one. You mean ‘mistakenly perceived slur’.

As regards crimes by British people in Poland. I am trying to think of a ‘conviction’…. Actually I personally know of two people from the UK that have been arrested and charged for a few things: mostly to do with ‘drunk and disorderly’ (I can’t tell you their names as they might well read this blog). And there are loads of petty offenses in Krakow – it’s one of the main ‘British stag party’ venues these days sadly.

But I don’t scour the newspapers looking for this stuff, so I only know anecdotal stuff..

I would also remind you that only a few thousand Brits in Poland. If there were 700,000 of them in this country then the statistical probability of getting some real serious crime would be much much higher… and inevitable.

mullet said...

Marty, get over it....if you are gonna be buggered in the park....most likely a fellow ginger nut! some guy called shuggy?
Now pretend you were not a voter...what difference does it make? you have this idea that immigrants make for some flawed queen and country....bottomless pit....why so obsessed about the local shit? ranting on as if - 'get rid of immigrants, then we will be fine'....balls! and you know it!

Martin said...

Nemeczek,

That someone answered you back on the same patronising terms as you addressed them must have come as a culture shock - my apologies for any unintended trauma.

And in such aguments as these one always lets one's head rule one's heart.

The tenor of your comment makes me believe your will to argue is exhausted.

Beatroot,

‘Higher standards than the BCS’?

Well, as far as 'The Black Museum's' compilation is concerned, yes.

You make the critical error of assuming that the BCS is infallible - it is not.

Example 1 - a car is left at a location and the owner or keeper returns to find it gone. The vehicle is later discovered burnt out and the thief is never caught.

Crime? Yes. The owner hired the thief to steal it as an insurance job. A crime was committed - but not the one appearing on the BCS.

Example 2 - A man is convicted of rape and murder on circumstanial evidence and receives two life sentences. His offences are reported in the BCS.

Crime? No. Five years later his convictions are overturned on appeal.

Part of your point about the real crime rate is, however, well made - as I wrote in 'A Note From The Curator'

"Thirdly, the crimes reported here are mostly indictable crimes, the most serious of all offences. However, my own experience tells one that such crimes constitute only a very small proportion of the criminal justice system's workload. The more one reports on foreign crime in the UK, the more one realises its phenomenal scale; for if one conviction for people trafficking equals 30 unpaid TV licences, how many unpaid parking tickets does a murder equal? "

You walked right into that one...

If you ever get any convictions with a hyperlink - let me know.

You write,

"I would also remind you that only a few thousand Brits in Poland. If there were 700,000 of them in this country then the statistical probability of getting some real serious crime would be much much higher… and inevitable. "

Beatroot, on the balance of probabilities you could very well be correct - however, facts are harsh masters. The gross imbalance in numbers migrating between the UK and Poland means that at the moment the question you pose can only be treated as rhetorical.

Mullet,

I'm sorry, but I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

beatroot said...

Agreed, the BCS is not infalible - it's not even the Pope. But it does give a good comparison from one year to another.

I think crime has gone in Britain because most crime is caused by 18-25 year olds - and there are simply less of that age group in Britain than before.

Accept of course for more 18-25 year old Poles. Which leads me to the conclusion that this group of 18-25 year olds are, on the whole, more law abiding than there indegenous counterparts.

Martin said...

Beatroot,

90% correct as far as the 18-25 year olds go - those are most male offenders' Golden Years. Unless they're determined to lead a life of crime, 25 is the age by which they've quit.

You might be right about the Poles; my offenders are of all ages - but I wouldn't call the BCS a good year on year comparison. Given the number of crimes which have been added to, changes in policing practice (ep Brian Paddick's softly-softly approach to cannabis possession in Brixton),etc. there are too many variables at work to make it even a good year on year comparison.

beatroot said...

Yeah, there have been problems with redefinition of crimes.

For instance, in the old days a racist crime was defined by the police (at a time when the police were frequently racist). These days a racist crime is defined by the victim – with cops running around ‘community leaders’ asking them if they ‘have any racist crimes to report today.’…I exaggerate, but only a bit…how times have changed.

So BCR has problems…but it is still better that CRIME STATISTICS which only record convictions. I have been attacked three times in London and never reported any of them. So those crimes went undetected.

nemeczek said...

Martin:
Gee, you are smart. Apologies accepted - I am almost over the cultural shock you are referring to.
For all the kind words you do deserve a bit of friendly advice. Firstly, be coherent in your views. If you are for migration on principle, but at the same time, against immigration of selected nationalities into your country (diluting citizenship, Golden Ticket, free ride - how do you people come up with those phrases?), you need to present RATIONAL reasons for that. Newspaper clippings won't do. If your ramblings focus on those clippings, somebody may see a xenophobe hiding under a mask of a concerned citizen. Secondly, you seem like a man on a mission. Whatever this mission is, you will NOT succeed. You might just as well howl at the moon hoping it will go away. Find something else you can be passionate about - beekeeping, organic farming, or yoga. Any of those will brighten up you soul.

beatroot said...

I think it should be stated that this blog is FOR the free movement of people on principle. No ifs and buts...if we believe capital should be able to cross borders then so should people. Period.

Martin said...

Nemeczek,

Free advice is worth what you pay for it.

Just where did you get the idea that I am against migration on principle?

Not from anything I've written, believe me.

What I am against is mass migration, and migrants committing crimes which incur costs that I have to pick up. Since May 1 2004 mass migration in Europe has been very much a one-way street, Nemmy, and that phenomenon always says more about the country or zone that sends the migrants than the one receiving them.

"diluting citizenship, Golden Ticket, free ride - how do you people come up with those phrases" - with a great deal of hard work and effort.

"Newspaper clippings won't do" - I'll decide what will or will not do on my blog, thank you very much.

You do not edit it, I do. You are under no obligation to read it.

And as far as newspaper clippings go, have you ever heard of the principle of critical mass?

"If your ramblings focus on those clippings, somebody may see a xenophobe hiding under a mask of a concerned citizen."

Nemmy, quite far up this thread, Beatroot posted a phrase in capital letters -BECAUSE THEY CAN. I do what I do because I can. I come from a culture where the fear of the knock on the door in the middle of the night is alien. I don't live in fear of being informed upon. Readers can draw whatevere conclusions they wish from what I write.

And don't be so xenophobophobic.

"Secondly, you seem like a man on a mission. Whatever this mission is, you will NOT succeed."

Is that a challenge? Do you know something I don't?

Beatroot,

Ernie Bevin didn't think that.

beatroot said...

...Nor did BevAn...

Martin said...

Guys,

Meet Lucas Sonta -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/12/foreign-criminal-of-day-drunk-driving.html

Pretty much a poster boy for everything I'm talking about.

mullet said...

Marty, you zoom in on immigrants....15/20 years ago...what was the reason then?

mullet said...

that link is so corny

it's the stuff that the daily mail is made of

beatroot said...

Oh Martin. On his rather silly Black Museum you write:

Sonta's case is an extreme example of some Eastern Europeans' appalling attitude towards drink driving - a phenomenon which has also been observed in Scotland and Ireland.

In 2003 BBC reported:

Drink-drive deaths have fallen dramatically over the last 20 years, but have been edging up recently. There were an estimated 560 deaths in the UK last year - 6% more than in 2001.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3299037.stm

560 deaths caused by drink driving….and all of those BEFORE the influx of Poles to the UK.

Anonymous said...

Mullet,

20 years ago I was too busy trying to get my head round Higher Maths.

Beatrrot,

That's a classic non-sequitur.

A bit beneath you.

beatroot said...

That's a classic non-sequitur.

Sorry...but I went to a comprehensive in Sarf London. What's a 'non-sequitur'?

beatroot said...

Whatever a non-thingy is look at the what the UK government web site is saying for drink driving fogures for 2005 and then subtract or add the difference from 2002 given above BEFORE POLES STARTED TO DRIVE EN MASS IN BRITAIN…

The latest provisional figures from 2005, show that some 560 people were killed in crashes in which a driver was over the legal limit, 2,100 were seriously injured and 12,740 were slightly injured.

560 IN 2005 (AFTER A YEAR AND A HALF OF Polish mass immigration)…compared to 560 in 2002, before Polish mass immigration.

You can do the maths…

http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/drinkdrive/drinkdrive.htm

Martin said...

Beatroot,

I'm a third generation public schoolboy - and it's 'en masse'.

'Provisional figures'...hmmm

Sod the maths...here's the BBC instead...

"Police in north Aberdeenshire have raised concerns about the number of migrant workers caught drunk in charge of motor vehicles.
Posters and leaflets, written in Lithuanian, Russian and Polish, are being distributed by Grampian Police to highlight the dangers of drink-driving.

Grampian Police have dealt with 12 such cases since the beginning of July.

They said that people moving to Scotland might not be aware of the drink drive laws in Britain...

Recent cases included two Latvians, three Poles, two Angolans, four Lithuanians and a German. None were involved in a collision.

Posters and leaflets are being distributed to food processing sites, the main area where the workers are employed, and public places in the area.

Peterhead-based Chief Inspector William MacColl of North Aberdeenshire Division said: "We have undertaken this initiative in order to raise the issue with people from other nations where drink driving is perhaps not dealt with as strictly as it is in Scotland.

"We would rather educate people not to get behind the wheel of a car even if it is to get out of the inclement weather.

"In recent weeks we have dealt with a number of motorists who were clearly not fully aware of the law and we are undertaking this exercise to pass the message - no-one should get behind the steering wheel of any motor vehicle while under the influence."

This is called importing a probelm Beatroot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6113128.stm

beatroot said...

You are right about some of the Polish drivers, and it’s something I have drawn attention to three times of this blog already. The Irish press is full of that type of story too. It’s a real problem in Poland to with drunken morons killing people every weekend.

And it’s not because ‘they don’t know the law in Britain’ because Poland and UK have similar laws. It’s that they couldn’t give a shit. Period.

But at least the influx of Poles hasn’t contributed to an increase in the rate of deaths…so the problem is not significant in the UK – whereas in Poland, it most certainly is.

Martin said...

Beatroot,

I'll meet you in the middle and agree that "the influx of Poles hasn’t contributed to an (observable) increase in the rate of deaths" YET.

Perhaps 2-3 years down the line the figures might tell a different story.

See? I'm not an unreasonable guy...

And perhaps you now understand that it's the foreign offenders not giving a shit for British law that bothers me as much as their being foreign.

That's what sticks in the craw.

As ever, my good Beatroot, if you ever come across any story of a Brit not giving a shit for Polish law and which has a hyperlink in English, do let me know...

Anonymous said...

(Michael Farris, not anonymous but the new Google/Blogger sign-in process sucks donkeys)

"if you ever come across any story of a Brit not giving a shit for Polish law..."

I have a hard time imagining that such a story would get much press, westerners in general and English speaking ones can do no wrong in the eyes of many Poles (no, that attitude isn't any healthier than yours is).
I personally do know of Brits breaking various laws in Poland (truckloads of old visa violations for example, but a few other more serious ones too) but they've not been reported and I have no intention of publicising said cases.

"and which has a hyperlink in English, do let me know..."

and maybe a pony too?

Martin said...

Michael,

It's very unfortunate, in fact deplorable, that such stories don't get reported because that means the Poles are not being told the whole story about their own country's crimerate - and also the extent to which foreigners respect Polish law.

Pony? Don't get the reference

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