Monday, November 13, 2006

Those illusive CIA prisons in Poland


Council of Europe couldn’t find ‘em; Euro parliamentarians can’t find ‘em, either. No smoking gun, no torturer’s rope, no Polish version of Lindsay England.

Euro MEPs are annoyed. A press statement last Friday by the European Parliament, made at the end of a three day visit to Poland by one of the EP’s crack team of investigators says:

The head of the delegation, Carlos Coelho thanked the journalists, NGO representatives, intelligence and airport officials who had agreed to meet them. "I regret, however," he said, "the fact that political authorities from the Polish government and Parliament were not as kind: some government members rejected the invitation, others initially accepted to see us and later refused to come [this includes Defense Minister Radek Sikorski]. Finally, there were some high officials were willing to meet us but they never got permission from their superiors."

Busy with the local elections, I think. The team did meet up, however, with the principle players in the supposed intrigue.

Among those who did agree to meet MEPs were the former head of the Foreign Intelligence Agency Zbigniew Siemiatkowski, the former and current chairmen of the board of Szymany airport – Jerzy Kos and Jaroslaw Jurczenko.

When the original story broke last November, the EU Justice Minister threatened to cut off Polish voting rights (during ministerial meetings) if any torture prisons were found on Polish soil. But as I have pointed out many times, the evidence against Poland on this is as weak and wobbley as a just-born baby horse's legs.

Hopefully the EU will come to the same conclusion as I have: Polish CIA torture prisons are a bit like Saddam Hussein’s WMD. The EU investigating team is like a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat, that isn’t there…

58 comments:

Anonymous said...

What did these MEP investigators expect? Marching bands and a red carpet? They are on a witch hunt and they know it. This idea that there were "torture
prisons" run by the CIA and condoned by the Polish authorities, is just plain nuts. Media hype tends to breathe life into these kinds of conspiracies even when they're based on nothing but unfounded associative conjecture.
Also, this could have waited a week or so until after the elections but NOOO, their investigation is more important than national elections. Then to complain? How rude and lacking in respect for Poland's sovereignty.
Their treatment by the political establishment was appropriate.

jannovak57 said...

In the administrative structure of the EU an MEP must have a similar or equivalent rank to a toilet cleaner. No offence meant to toilet cleaners (at least their useful). To have had anyone speak to those jerks represents pandering to idiocy.

The agenda here is to pressure or embarrass governments that broke with old Europe to support the US. This Temporary Committee of leftist MEPs runs around making unsubstantiated allegations to the media and has yet to find any evidence. Thus far they have succeeded in confirming there’s no intelligent life in Brussels.

Before these guys find evidence of CIA rendition in Poland the following are likely to occur first:

George Bush will find the WMD’s.
Erika Steinbach will get an award for being Polish Nationalist of the Year.
The Chechens will vote Putin for humanitarian of the year.


Full marks to the government for giving them the dirty digit!

Since the MEPs have a liking for these Temporary Committees to investigate things, perhaps Brussels what like to try this one?

“Allegations French troops supported soldiers behind Rwanda's 1994 genocide and helped facilitate mass murder. Rwanda's Tutsi President Paul Kagame, whose government came to power after the genocide, has accused France of training and arming Hutu militias who were the main force behind a 100-day slaughter that killed 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus”
The subject of the above article seems worthy of investigation, too bad it’s not going to happen, we all know such an idea would never see the light of day

Michael Farris said...

"Hopefully the EU will come to the same conclusion as I have: ...The EU investigating team is like a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat, that isn’t there…"

Poor naive beatroot, the impression I get is that the EU inspectors are furious with Poland for seeming to be innocent in this case. The more innocent it is, the more furious it will be.
Should it be proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that there were no prisons then Poland may never be forgiven.

ig da geez said...

Is that photo from the movie Chicken Run?

The fence seems fortified by chicken wire.

I suppose a Polski Fiat might have some difficulty ramming through it.

Harry said...

Well, considering the fact that Poland is quite happy to take part in an illegal war to insert its collective tongue even further up the arse of the USA and thus help cause the deaths of hundred of thousands of people known to be innocent, it isn’t really hard to believe that Poland might help be involved in locking up a few hundred people who are suspected of being guilty of crimes.

Anonymous said...

Harry you leftist liberal piece of shit! Pull your head out of your asshole and admit that your just another pathetic apologiser for every dictator and mass murder that’s every come along.

You’re too much of a pussy to appreciate people with the guts to stand up for freedom.

Harry said...

^ Completely untrue! I have never apologised for George W Bush in my life!


I do love the way that you think freedom is best 'stood up for' by states kidnapping people and detaining them without trial in prisons which those state deny even exist.


By the way: I guess from you not bothering to provide your name you are too much of a 'pussy' to stand by your words.

ig da geez said...

Jeez, I'd hate to be on trial with Harry on a jury!

There's not even a shred of circumstantial evidence that such a prison exists or ever existed.

And I'd like to be on a jury with Anonymous on trial.

Harry said...

^ Well if you get arrested by the CIA you'll be pleased to get any kind of trial at all. Not that you would get one.

I assume that you were one of the people who stated that there were no secret CIA prisons anywhere and that there was no evidence that such prisons existed, right up until the moment that the president of the USA confirmed that such prisons did exist and do exist.

sonia said...

I am conflicted on this issue. On one hand I am glad that they covered their tracks so effectively. But on the other hand, I would love if those hypocritical Western governments were confronted with a stark reality of what it actually takes to fight terrorism. Reminds me of that famous Jack Nichjolson's statement, 'You can't handle the truth !'. Those Eurocratic assholes definitely cannot...

Anonymous said...

Oh Harry!

Who cares if there are CIA prisons somewhere, it just that there are NONE in Poland. Harry just repeat after me “there are no CIA prisons in Poland” and “there never were CIA prisons in Poland”.

Are you on a day pass from some institution? Now if you get arrested you will not get a trial as that requires mental competence. So you will just be sent back to the institution. If you can’t sleep at night because you have visions of Dick Marty searching the backwoods of Poland and finding nothing more than a crumpled beer, can just relax. Get yourself a book say Don Quixote, does that windmill business have a similar ring to your obsession.

So stop pounding on the padded walls and if your good the drama club will let you audition for the part of Sancho Panza.

Harry said...

Oh anonymous!

No doubt you also believed that there were no places were people were illegally held by a government which denied that it held them in places which that same government denied existed. "There are none anywhere" and "There were never anywhere".

I love the way that you appear to think that namecalling is a substitute for debate. You have no answer to any of my points so instead you try to see how many insults you can get into a single post. Although as you are no doubt from the land which elected a man who was too much of a chicken to go and fight himself but who instead questioned the patriotism of a man who lost three limbs while fighting in the same war that your beloved coward refused to fight in.

Anonymous said...

Do you have short-term memory loss? Harry are these not your words?

“considering the fact that Poland is quite happy to take part in an illegal war to insert its collective tongue even further up the arse of the USA”

You set the tone and now your whining!

Could you be Dick Marty just dressed up like a little girl.

Harry said...

^ Perhaps you point to a single word in that quote which is not true?

Did Poland take part in the war? Yes.

Was the war legal? No.

Did Poland gain anything from taking part in the illegal invasion? No.

Are you brave enough to use your real name? No.

You know my name and if you read my stuff you will know where to find me (hint: Bar Below on a friday night is usually a good bet), so will you want to have this conversation in person so you can call me a piece of shit to my face? That's about as likely as your hero applying for combat duty.

Anonymous said...

Good Night Harry

Try to sleep it off

harry said...

See you on friday at Bar Below anonymous, or then again, probably not. I'll be there whatever.

Euronet 2010 said...

The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed. This is elementary.

Given Poland's toadying to the US there is every reason to believe they would have provided the CIA with whatever it wanted.

To use an argument favoured by conservatives everywhere: if Poland has nothing to hide they need not fear a few nosey MEPs poking around.

ignacy said...

Why is it that far leftists sound so much just like Nazis and Russian Communists to me?

Odlot said...

Because you're not paying attention.

ig da geez said...

Thanks for enlightening me, odiot.

ig da geez said...

So euronet, according to your logic, Saddam could have hidden the WMD. Certainly given Saddam's past record, there's every reason to believe that there were WMD somewhere. They just weren't found by the inspectors.

Sorry, bad logic in both instances that ignores facts in favor of the convenience of ideology.

Harry said...

^ Not only were they not found by the UN inspectors but the US team which spent more than 18 months looking everywhere in Iraq didn't find any and reported that there were none to find. Google for the Duelfer Report.

Now how about Amnesty International get 18 months of going anywhere they want and looking at anything they want? That should clear up the secret prisons issue.

ig da geez said...

I am quite aware of what wasn't found by the inspectors in Iraq. I was making a spurious argument following euronet's logic. Sorry you didn't get my point. And I am not a Bush or occupation of Iraq supporter. Why do folks with far left ideological agendas always assume everybody else is an idiot? And it's fine with me about AI as long as I don't have to pay for any such investigation with my tax money. Give them two years. If they don't find anything after the EU folks found nothing, will you believe them? I doubt it.

Euronet 2010 said...

Id da geez:

It's not "my" logic. It's logic. Books have been written about it but if you don't have time to read them, just try thinking coherently for two seconds. Logically, the WMD could exist. However, as Harry implies, a far more thorough search has been made for them than has been made for the alleged prisons in Poland.

Id da geez compared far leftists (whoever he means by that - he doesn't say) to Nazis and called odlot an idiot. Two posts later he asks why "folks" on the far left think everyone else is an idiot.

So, Id da geez, are you, perhaps, far left folk? You call people who disagree with you idiots so you fit the picture.

Euronet 2010 said...

Id da geez:

Are you 100% sure you are "quite aware of what wasn't found by the inspectors in Iraq"? Think about it.

ig da geez said...

euro und harry: Take some time and actually read some of the BR links he provides in the article. Where's the slightest bit of any evidence that there was any kind of prison???? A CIA transport plane landing in September 2003? Was Kaczynski Prez then? No, and who denied that there were such prisons at the time? I know, all Polish names sound alike so what difference does it make? All Poles are bloody fascist reactionaries anyway. There were many more such CIA transports landing in England. Why not investigate that?

Harry said...

^ Hopefully those flights will be investigated too and the guilty charged and given a fair trial (something they still insist in denying to their victims).

Now if we want to compare who sounds more like communists and nazis perhaps we should ask a small but pertinent question: which of the posters here oppose detention without charge or fair trial and which excuse such detention claiming it is necessary and that ‘there’s no evidence’? Now ask what the Nazi and communist viewpoint on detention without trial and claiming that there is no evidence to support the existence of such prisons?

ig da geez said...

What is the evidence that there were or are such prisons in Poland, Harry?

Please enlighten me and us all.

Harry said...

Well we could start with the Polish government enquiry from last December. Or at least we could if the report of that enquiry had been made public, which it hasn't (obviously nothing to hide there then).

Alternatively we could read the accounts given by current and former CIA officials in the ABC article of December 5 2005 "Sources Tell ABC News Top Al Qaeda Figures Held in Secret CIA Prisons". Although we will be reading the sanitised version because, as Council of Europe report into the affair notes "the ABC article confirming the use of secret detention camps in Poland and Romania by the CIA was available on the Internet for only a very short time before being withdrawn."

beatroot said...

The first time I saw this story in the Washington Post last November I thought it smelt. So much had been presumed from so little. But as the story ‘developed’ things just got worse. Doing a round up of the press back then Jefferson Morley in the Washington Post said of an article in Turkey:

In Turkey, a columnist for the Yeni Safak newspaper said "human smuggling sponsored by governments is gradually becoming a nightmare for the entire world... Are we going to cover up operations, unlawful acts, and crimes against humanity committed by the CIA or on its behalf in this country?" Ibrahim Karagul predicted the "secret torture centres" in Eastern Europe will be recorded in history as "the United States' Auschwitzs."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2005/11/european_media_see_an_american.html

A United States Auschwitz. In Poland. That’s just ridiculous. Of course, in Central Europe, the vision of barbed wire fences with emaciated people inside fits well, don’t it? It’s what happens in that part of the world, innit?
US Auschwitz in Poland on the strength of a couple of flight logs! Never mind that we now know the around 100 rendition flights went in and out of the UK. A similar number in Spain. Even Germany. But no talk of an ‘Auschwitz’ in deepest Croydon or Malaga. Even that’s too much a leap of the imagination for the degenerated liberal/left, who, like the wacky right wing nutters of old, strangely comfort themselves in ridiculous conspiracy theories such as another Auschwitz in Poland. Sad.
Ever since Poland supported the US in the disaster in Iraq, the libs have been out to ‘get’ Poland (forgetting that many of them supported the war in the first place.

Poland and Romania are being used as whipping boys by Democrats to get at Bush because they can’t think up a decent argument against the ‘war on terror’ in general (one that they cravenly supported at the beginning). That’s how impotent they are now. Sad. Very sad.

beatroot said...

And one more thing....even the Director of Human Rights Watch, in December last year (I am just doing what Iggy said and following my own links) Tom Malinowski, seemed to back off, slightly, from its original claims. He told RFE/RL: "We have specific evidence which is circumstantial; we've never said that we have proof that there are facilities in these countries or that there are facilities."

Even HRW, a Clintonesque creation in the 1990s, has only 'circumstancial evidence'.

That's all there is. And that is not good enough to make the claims they have made. This is political.

I think that is a bit naff....

ig da geez said...

Sorry Harry. But I just don't see any evidence of a prison in Poland, not even circumstanial. A CIA plane landed in Poland. Hundreds more landed all over England, Germany, etc.

But BR, I never heard much from any Democratic politician making an issue of this. Media yes, at first, but since then nothing that I've heard or seen. And it all came from Tom Malinowski of HRW. And it doesn't seem he has said a word about it since then either. I really don't know if or how much he is tied into the Democratic Party establishment. I don't know if he considers himself a liberal or a radical or a Hottentot. I've googled and yahooed and haven't found much about his background or activities outside of being in DC for the HRW. So I think it's inaccurate and unfair to automatically cast aspersions spin other conspiracy theories (ie.: they're out to get Poland). More likely, my guess is that Malinowski is a far lefty who wanted to sensationalize the whole deal and get publicity for himself and HRW.

Euronet 2010 said...

Ig da geez's last remark directed at me was: "euro und harry: Take some time and actually read some of the BR links he provides in the article. Where's the slightest bit of any evidence that there was any kind of prison?"

I have never said there was any evidence there were prisons in Poland. Please read my posts as carefully as I write them.

Somebody accused Poland of having secret prisons. Somebody accused Iraq of having WMD. The burden of proof in both cases is on the accuser. In neither case, as far as I am aware, has any credible proof of the accusation been offered.

Who was president of Poland in 2003? Who is Malinowski? Are Poles fascist? Are their surnames all alike? Completely irrelevant to the point I raised, a point which you, Ig, have studiously avoided.

ig da geez said...

Short term memory loss?

Euronet 2010 said...
The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed. This is elementary.

Given Poland's toadying to the US there is every reason to believe they would have provided the CIA with whatever it wanted.

To use an argument favoured by conservatives everywhere: if Poland has nothing to hide they need not fear a few nosey MEPs poking around.

beatroot said...

I know: unbelievable.

The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed. This is elementary.

It’s not elementary at all.

That's the same as saying that ‘No physical evidence of goblins and elves has been found but that does not mean they don’t exist’!

Bull. Goblins and elves exist when we have found evidence that they do – not before.

ig da geez said...

But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independently of human beings - to exist they don't need to be recognized by human beings; WMDs and prisons are created by human beings. Besides, haven't you seen or read LoR? What more proof do you need?

ig da geez said...

But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independently of human beings - to exist they don't need to be recognized by human beings; WMDs and prisons are created by human beings. Besides, haven't you seen or read LoR? What more proof do you need?

harry said...

While the philosphical discussion certainly is most interesting perhaps somebody who thinks that there are and have been no secret CIA prisons in Poland could explain how ABC was able to find current and former CIA officials who confirmed that such prisions existed?

While you are at it perhaps you could also explain why the Polish government read their own report into the matter and promptly marked it 'For fuck's sake do not let the public read this'?

Euronet 2010 said...

I can only repeat: read my posts carefully.

e.g. "Given Poland's toadying to the US there is every reason to believe they would have provided the CIA with whatever it wanted."

See that little word "would"? The above is speculation and is clearly (to anyone who can read) presented as such.

"The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed." Nor does it mean that they did exist. Is that really so difficult to grasp?

ig da geez said...

Harry wrote: ABC was able to find current and former CIA officials who confirmed that such prisions existed. The Polish government read their own report into the matter and promptly marked it 'For fuck's sake do not let the public read this'?


>> Harry, Please document that CIA officials confirmed that such prisons existed IN POLAND! That has been your point of contention for which I find no evidence, not that such prisons were/are operative elsewhere. As for the Polish report, cite some url for reference and I'll consider it. I'm no fan of the present Polish political leadership group. But don't expect me to take your hyperbolic claims very seriously.

Euronet --I do read your posts carefully. This one made your understanding of the issues involved very clear to me:

"Who was president of Poland in 2003? Who is Malinowski?"

These are important matters in the discussion and yet you dismiss them as irrelevant. Again, unless you are willing to spend some time reading BR's links to other articles in his article, I have nothing more to discuss with you on this matter.

harry said...

About the Polish government report:
"26. The Polish Government ordered an enquiry into the alleged existence in Poland of secret CIA detention centres. The findings were to have been made known in December, but so far none have been published (although a parliamentary committee had been informed of these findings). On 21 December 2005, I wrote to the head of the Polish delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly, Mr Iwinski, asking him to let me have the findings as soon as possible."
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/CommitteeDocs/2006/20060124_Jdoc032006_E.htm


As to the ABC article, I can't find the original version but
"6. On 5 December 2005 ABC reported, in turn, the existence of secret prisons in Poland and Romania that had apparently been closed following The Washington Post’s revelations. According to ABC, eleven suspects detained in these centres were then transferred to CIA facilities in North Africa. They were allegedly submitted to the harshest interrogation techniques (so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques”). I would point out that the ABC article confirming the use of secret detention camps in Poland and Romania by the CIA was available on the Internet for only a very short time before being withdrawn. This strikes me as a telling indication of the pressure put on the media in this affair (in this particular case, the pressure was apparently brought to bear direct by the CIA)."
Same source as above.

The report also states that HRW, ABC and the Washington Post did not just quote each other:
"7. It would seem from confidential contacts that the information revealed by The Washington Post, HRW and ABC came from different sources, probably all well-informed official sources. This is clearly a factor that adds to the credibility of the allegations, since the media concerned have not simply taken information from one another."


And then we have the question of why two senior US govt officials would deny that the US uses torture but refused to deny that secret CIA prisons operated in Europe:
"8. In an interview broadcast by the American channel ABC on 29 November 2005, the Director of the United States Central Intelligence Agency, Porter Goss, did not deny the existence of CIA secret prisons in various parts of the world where people suspected of terrorism were held. He did, however, categorically deny that the United States used torture, while refusing to pass judgment on certain interrogation techniques used by its services.

9. On 5 December 2005, Condoleezza Rice, the American Secretary of State, made a statement addressed to Europeans in which she did not, at any point, deny the existence of the alleged centres, or of the flights transporting detainees, but reaffirmed the need to resort to “extraordinary renditions” in the context of efforts to counter terrorism. The only thing that Ms Rice categorically denied was the use of torture."
Same source as above.

ig da geez said...

Thanks for making the effot Harry. Sincerely.

But the CoE report was penned by Dick Marty who relies (as did ABC and the Washington Post and just about every other media reporting on the matter) predominantly on Malinowski's HRW report. All Malinowski can document is that some hobbyist recorded on the internet the tail number of the plane and time of its landing at the Polish airport in 2003 -- when Kwasniewski incidentily was president -- and who denied that there was such a prison in Poland. Marty (and Malinowski for that matter) then jumped to conclusions based on reports about such prisons elsewhere in Europe. So I think his was either an exercise in ego self-aggrandisement or overzealousness on Malinowski's part, at best. I also think that Marty knowingly or witlessly did a hatchet job on Poland based on his and the current Polish gubmint's ideological dispositions - both of which make me wanna puke.

Harry said...

^ Perhaps you might like to actually read the post I made? You will see that the ABC report of December 5th is not based on the HRW report but was actually about the US reaction to the HRW report. It uses current and former CIA officials as its source.

Let me quote from the article for you:
“Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert.

CIA officials asked ABC News not to name the specific countries where the prisons were located, citing security concerns.

The CIA declines to comment, but current and former intelligence officials tell ABC News that 11 top al Qaeda figures were all held at one point on a former Soviet air base in one Eastern European country. Several of them were later moved to a second Eastern European country.”
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1375123

ig da geez said...

Keep spinning Harry. I think you're being silly. Sorry.

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

Ig
But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independently of human beings - to exist they don't need to be recognized by human beings; WMDs and prisons are created by human beings.

Ignacy – what drugs are you on, man?

Harry
How ABC was able to find current and former CIA officials who confirmed that such prisons existed?

There was someone in the Polish secret service who told the same thing to Gazeta Wyborcza. You would think, then, that their testimonies would have been followed by journalists; more information would emerge; there would be more leaks from the CIA (or the old CIA before there was a bit of a clear out a couple of years ago – and of course they have an axe to grind, too).

But not a sausage. The investigations by journalists, Council of Europe, EU, Human Rights Watch, have come up zilch. The story is bull.

What happened was: the plane, containing terrorist suspects, touched down in Poland for an hour. We know that no prisoners got off the plane, because we have a witness (it’s in one of those links in the post). Something happened during that hour. No prisons were involved because this was a refuelling point, or something. Then the plane took off again, heading for some awful place where these poor bastards has ‘special techniques’, in Bush’s words, applied to their genitals, etc.

But the Polish involvement in what is a disgusting practice was very small.

Henry Grodsk said...

Now I know you'll accuse me of splitting hairs but if you were an innocent suspect you would clutch at such half-hairs. Here goes:

Beatroot wrote:
"What happened was: the plane, containing terrorist suspects, touched down in Poland for an hour. We know that no prisoners got off the plane.... No prisons were involved because this was a refuelling point, or something."

I disagree. A plane on Polish soil from which you are not permitted, on pain of torture or death, to disembark is a prison in Poland. Oscar Wilde wrote that four walls do not a prison make. He was right. A tubular steel fuselage with armed guards is just as good. And don't tell me that just one hour doesn't count unless you are prepared to say exactly how much unlawful imprisonment is A-okay with you and your grandmother. And give reasons for your answer - ones good enough for your suspect grandmother, not Alan Dershowitz.

beatroot said...

You are indeed splitting hairs, if I may say so. Compare a one hour stay in a tubular thing to a US AUSCHWITZ IN POLAND.

See the difference?

ig da geez said...

President Aleksander Kwasniewski: "I can assure you that there are no such prisons ***or prisoners held in Poland.*** "

>>> Maybe he was lying or didn't know. But how does anyone know for sure what or who was in that plane? I may well have missed something but where's the proof that there were any prisoners in that plane? I'm not ruling out the possibility but again where's the proof? A witness states nobody got off. Where's the witness to indicate there were prisoners inside?

And BR, aside from the drugs I'm on, I was trying to somewhat playfully make a point about proof. Prolly not very well due to the drugz and old age and just plain having used up too many brain cells.

Harry said...

"The investigations by journalists, Council of Europe, EU, Human Rights Watch, have come up zilch."

Zilch = confirmation by multiple people from the organisation which ran the secret prisons (which have now been confirmed as existing but at unconfirmed locations and at the time of the statement that the prisons even existed was denied) that one the secret prisons was in Poland (something which is still denied) plus confirmation from Polish secret service plus flight logs proving Poland to be a destination country plus refusal to deny such prisons existing in Poland by US officials plus just one witness who claims nobody got off the one plane which is not being denied.

Zilch. Absolutely zero.

Henry Grodsk said...

It wasn't me (I?) who compared recent Polish treatment of innocent people to Auschwitz.

Surely no one thinks these phantom secret prisons were purpose-built big houses complete with snarling alsations, searing searchlights and so on. In an open, democratic country you could hardly keep such a thing secret.

If there were prisons it's far more likely they were a few locked rooms with barred windows in a barracks on a military airstrip. The jailers might even have been polite. Still a prison though.

In any case the difference is one of degree rather than substance. I doubt many people brag about being merely an accessory to torture.

idg said...

Were they put in the Star Trek transporter room to get them into the barracks or whatever at the Polish airport? Remember, the witness says no one left the plane. And we do not know who or what was in the plane. There were many more CIA plane landings, in the hundreds, all over Europe.

Again, I'm not denying that folks were tortured and that such practice is reprehensible. Certainly Bush et. al. should be held accountable (as should the 14 terrorists now in Gitmo).

And again, I'm not opposed to investigating the matter further. Let the US Democrats lead the charge or have an independent group other than Human Rights Watch or with ties to HRW look into where the interrogations and torture took place. But until something substantive rather than gossip carries the day, there appears to be a rush to judgement against Poland.

Henry Grodsk said...

I was just going on what Beatroot wrote. I quoted it in my first post. He didn't say anything about Star Trek.

beatroot said...

Surely no one thinks these phantom secret prisons were purpose-built big houses complete with snarling alsations, searing searchlights and so on.

But Henry, that is exactly what people think. That's why they use words like Auschwitz...I have also seen the word 'Gulag' used as well.

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Even in the most sexually liberated and self-satisfied of nations, many people still yearn to burn more, to feel ready for bedding no matter what the clock says and to desire their partner of 23 years as much as they did when their love was brand new.
The market is saturated with books on how to revive a flagging libido or spice up monotonous sex, and sex therapists say “lack of desire” is one of the most common complaints they hear from patients, particularly women.

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