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That's why they use words like Auschwitz...I have also seen the word 'Gulag' used as well.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163786793389143372006-11-17T19:06:00.000+01:002006-11-17T19:06:00.000+01:00Were they put in the Star Trek transporter room to...Were they put in the Star Trek transporter room to get them into the barracks or whatever at the Polish airport? Remember, the witness says no one left the plane. And we do not know who or what was in the plane. There were many more CIA plane landings, in the hundreds, all over Europe.<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not denying that folks were tortured and that such practice is reprehensible. Certainly Bush et. al. should be held accountable (as should the 14 terrorists now in Gitmo). <BR/><BR/>And again, I'm not opposed to investigating the matter further. Let the US Democrats lead the charge or have an independent group other than Human Rights Watch or with ties to HRW look into where the interrogations and torture took place. But until something substantive rather than gossip carries the day, there appears to be a rush to judgement against Poland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163775349457013382006-11-17T15:55:00.000+01:002006-11-17T15:55:00.000+01:00"The investigations by journalists, Council of Eur..."The investigations by journalists, Council of Europe, EU, Human Rights Watch, have come up zilch."<BR/><BR/>Zilch = confirmation by multiple people from the organisation which ran the secret prisons (which have now been confirmed as existing but at unconfirmed locations and at the time of the statement that the prisons even existed was denied) that one the secret prisons was in Poland (something which is still denied) plus confirmation from Polish secret service plus flight logs proving Poland to be a destination country plus refusal to deny such prisons existing in Poland by US officials plus just one witness who claims nobody got off the one plane which is not being denied.<BR/><BR/>Zilch. Absolutely zero.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163731262803795802006-11-17T03:41:00.000+01:002006-11-17T03:41:00.000+01:00President Aleksander Kwasniewski: "I can assure yo...President Aleksander Kwasniewski: "I can assure you that there are no such prisons ***or prisoners held in Poland.*** "<BR/><BR/>>>> Maybe he was lying or didn't know. But how does anyone know for sure what or who was in that plane? I may well have missed something but where's the proof that there were any prisoners in that plane? I'm not ruling out the possibility but again where's the proof? A witness states nobody got off. Where's the witness to indicate there were prisoners inside?<BR/><BR/>And BR, aside from the drugs I'm on, I was trying to somewhat playfully make a point about proof. Prolly not very well due to the drugz and old age and just plain having used up too many brain cells.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163719599011110402006-11-17T00:26:00.000+01:002006-11-17T00:26:00.000+01:00You are indeed splitting hairs, if I may say so. C...You are indeed splitting hairs, if I may say so. Compare a one hour stay in a tubular thing to a US AUSCHWITZ IN POLAND. <BR/><BR/>See the difference?beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163715463890217232006-11-16T23:17:00.000+01:002006-11-16T23:17:00.000+01:00IgBut goblins and elves (and God) can exist indepe...Ig<BR/><I>But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independently of human beings - to exist they don't need to be recognized by human beings; WMDs and prisons are created by human beings.</I><BR/><BR/>Ignacy – what drugs are you on, man? <BR/><BR/>Harry<BR/><I>How ABC was able to find current and former CIA officials who confirmed that such prisons existed?</I><BR/><BR/>There was someone in the Polish secret service who told the same thing to Gazeta Wyborcza. You would think, then, that their testimonies would have been followed by journalists; more information would emerge; there would be more leaks from the CIA (or the old CIA before there was a bit of a clear out a couple of years ago – and of course they have an axe to grind, too). <BR/><BR/>But not a sausage. The investigations by journalists, Council of Europe, EU, Human Rights Watch, have come up zilch. The story is bull.<BR/><BR/>What happened was: the plane, containing terrorist suspects, touched down in Poland for an hour. We know that no prisoners got off the plane, because we have a witness (it’s in one of those links in the post). Something happened during that hour. No prisons were involved because this was a refuelling point, or something. Then the plane took off again, heading for some awful place where these poor bastards has ‘special techniques’, in Bush’s words, applied to their genitals, etc. <BR/><BR/>But the Polish involvement in what is a disgusting practice was very small.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163715258251001982006-11-16T23:14:00.000+01:002006-11-16T23:14:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163696275922508542006-11-16T17:57:00.000+01:002006-11-16T17:57:00.000+01:00Keep spinning Harry. I think you're being silly. ...Keep spinning Harry. I think you're being silly. Sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163693967494027472006-11-16T17:19:00.000+01:002006-11-16T17:19:00.000+01:00^ Perhaps you might like to actually read the post...^ Perhaps you might like to actually read the post I made? You will see that the ABC report of December 5th is not based on the HRW report but was actually about the US reaction to the HRW report. It uses current and former CIA officials as its source.<BR/><BR/> Let me quote from the article for you: <BR/>“Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert. <BR/><BR/>CIA officials asked ABC News not to name the specific countries where the prisons were located, citing security concerns. <BR/><BR/>The CIA declines to comment, but current and former intelligence officials tell ABC News that 11 top al Qaeda figures were all held at one point on a former Soviet air base in one Eastern European country. Several of them were later moved to a second Eastern European country.”<BR/>http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1375123Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163690208977284002006-11-16T16:16:00.000+01:002006-11-16T16:16:00.000+01:00Thanks for making the effot Harry. Sincerely.But ...Thanks for making the effot Harry. Sincerely.<BR/><BR/>But the CoE report was penned by Dick Marty who relies (as did ABC and the Washington Post and just about every other media reporting on the matter) predominantly on Malinowski's HRW report. All Malinowski can document is that some hobbyist recorded on the internet the tail number of the plane and time of its landing at the Polish airport in 2003 -- when Kwasniewski incidentily was president -- and who denied that there was such a prison in Poland. Marty (and Malinowski for that matter) then jumped to conclusions based on reports about such prisons elsewhere in Europe. So I think his was either an exercise in ego self-aggrandisement or overzealousness on Malinowski's part, at best. I also think that Marty knowingly or witlessly did a hatchet job on Poland based on his and the current Polish gubmint's ideological dispositions - both of which make me wanna puke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163686750475945162006-11-16T15:19:00.000+01:002006-11-16T15:19:00.000+01:00About the Polish government report: "26. The...About the Polish government report: <BR/>"26. The Polish Government ordered an enquiry into the alleged existence in Poland of secret CIA detention centres. The findings were to have been made known in December, but so far none have been published (although a parliamentary committee had been informed of these findings). On 21 December 2005, I wrote to the head of the Polish delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly, Mr Iwinski, asking him to let me have the findings as soon as possible."<BR/>http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/CommitteeDocs/2006/20060124_Jdoc032006_E.htm<BR/><BR/><BR/>As to the ABC article, I can't find the original version but<BR/>"6. On 5 December 2005 ABC reported, in turn, the existence of secret prisons in Poland and Romania that had apparently been closed following The Washington Post’s revelations. According to ABC, eleven suspects detained in these centres were then transferred to CIA facilities in North Africa. They were allegedly submitted to the harshest interrogation techniques (so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques”). I would point out that the ABC article confirming the use of secret detention camps in Poland and Romania by the CIA was available on the Internet for only a very short time before being withdrawn. This strikes me as a telling indication of the pressure put on the media in this affair (in this particular case, the pressure was apparently brought to bear direct by the CIA)."<BR/>Same source as above. <BR/><BR/>The report also states that HRW, ABC and the Washington Post did not just quote each other:<BR/>"7. It would seem from confidential contacts that the information revealed by The Washington Post, HRW and ABC came from different sources, probably all well-informed official sources. This is clearly a factor that adds to the credibility of the allegations, since the media concerned have not simply taken information from one another."<BR/><BR/><BR/>And then we have the question of why two senior US govt officials would deny that the US uses torture but refused to deny that secret CIA prisons operated in Europe:<BR/>"8. In an interview broadcast by the American channel ABC on 29 November 2005, the Director of the United States Central Intelligence Agency, Porter Goss, did not deny the existence of CIA secret prisons in various parts of the world where people suspected of terrorism were held. He did, however, categorically deny that the United States used torture, while refusing to pass judgment on certain interrogation techniques used by its services. <BR/><BR/>9. On 5 December 2005, Condoleezza Rice, the American Secretary of State, made a statement addressed to Europeans in which she did not, at any point, deny the existence of the alleged centres, or of the flights transporting detainees, but reaffirmed the need to resort to “extraordinary renditions” in the context of efforts to counter terrorism. The only thing that Ms Rice categorically denied was the use of torture."<BR/>Same source as above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163683540662338552006-11-16T14:25:00.000+01:002006-11-16T14:25:00.000+01:00Harry wrote: ABC was able to find current and for...Harry wrote: ABC was able to find current and former CIA officials who confirmed that such prisions existed. The Polish government read their own report into the matter and promptly marked it 'For fuck's sake do not let the public read this'? <BR/><BR/><BR/>>> Harry, Please document that CIA officials confirmed that such prisons existed IN POLAND! That has been your point of contention for which I find no evidence, not that such prisons were/are operative elsewhere. As for the Polish report, cite some url for reference and I'll consider it. I'm no fan of the present Polish political leadership group. But don't expect me to take your hyperbolic claims very seriously.<BR/><BR/>Euronet --I do read your posts carefully. This one made your understanding of the issues involved very clear to me:<BR/><BR/>"Who was president of Poland in 2003? Who is Malinowski?"<BR/><BR/>These are important matters in the discussion and yet you dismiss them as irrelevant. Again, unless you are willing to spend some time reading BR's links to other articles in his article, I have nothing more to discuss with you on this matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163679853913269202006-11-16T13:24:00.000+01:002006-11-16T13:24:00.000+01:00I can only repeat: read my posts carefully.e.g. "G...I can only repeat: read my posts carefully.<BR/><BR/>e.g. "Given Poland's toadying to the US there is every reason to believe they would have provided the CIA with whatever it wanted."<BR/><BR/>See that little word "would"? The above is speculation and is clearly (to anyone who can read) presented as such.<BR/><BR/>"The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed." Nor does it mean that they did exist. Is that really so difficult to grasp?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163663415864938582006-11-16T08:50:00.000+01:002006-11-16T08:50:00.000+01:00While the philosphical discussion certainly is mos...While the philosphical discussion certainly is most interesting perhaps somebody who thinks that there are and have been no secret CIA prisons in Poland could explain how ABC was able to find current and former CIA officials who confirmed that such prisions existed? <BR/><BR/>While you are at it perhaps you could also explain why the Polish government read their own report into the matter and promptly marked it 'For fuck's sake do not let the public read this'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163641223288139302006-11-16T02:40:00.001+01:002006-11-16T02:40:00.001+01:00But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independ...But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independently of human beings - to exist they don't need to be recognized by human beings; WMDs and prisons are created by human beings. Besides, haven't you seen or read LoR? What more proof do you need?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163641215028806912006-11-16T02:40:00.000+01:002006-11-16T02:40:00.000+01:00But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independ...But goblins and elves (and God) can exist independently of human beings - to exist they don't need to be recognized by human beings; WMDs and prisons are created by human beings. Besides, haven't you seen or read LoR? What more proof do you need?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163636462339979942006-11-16T01:21:00.000+01:002006-11-16T01:21:00.000+01:00I know: unbelievable. The prisons have not been fo...I know: unbelievable. <BR/><BR/><I>The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed. This is elementary.</I><BR/><BR/>It’s not elementary at all. <BR/><BR/>That's the same as saying that ‘No physical evidence of goblins and elves has been found but that does not mean they don’t exist’! <BR/><BR/>Bull. Goblins and elves exist when we have found evidence that they do – not before.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163636002017958572006-11-16T01:13:00.000+01:002006-11-16T01:13:00.000+01:00Short term memory loss?Euronet 2010 said... The pr...Short term memory loss?<BR/><BR/>Euronet 2010 said... <BR/>The prisons have not been found in Poland. That does not mean they never existed. This is elementary. <BR/><BR/>Given Poland's toadying to the US there is every reason to believe they would have provided the CIA with whatever it wanted. <BR/><BR/>To use an argument favoured by conservatives everywhere: if Poland has nothing to hide they need not fear a few nosey MEPs poking around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163635114888616732006-11-16T00:58:00.000+01:002006-11-16T00:58:00.000+01:00Ig da geez's last remark directed at me was: "euro...Ig da geez's last remark directed at me was: "euro und harry: Take some time and actually read some of the BR links he provides in the article. Where's the slightest bit of any evidence that there was any kind of prison?"<BR/><BR/>I have never said there was any evidence there were prisons in Poland. Please read my posts as carefully as I write them.<BR/><BR/>Somebody accused Poland of having secret prisons. Somebody accused Iraq of having WMD. The burden of proof in both cases is on the accuser. In neither case, as far as I am aware, has any credible proof of the accusation been offered.<BR/><BR/>Who was president of Poland in 2003? Who is Malinowski? Are Poles fascist? Are their surnames all alike? Completely irrelevant to the point I raised, a point which you, Ig, have studiously avoided.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163633511989354112006-11-16T00:31:00.000+01:002006-11-16T00:31:00.000+01:00Sorry Harry. But I just don't see any evidence of...Sorry Harry. But I just don't see any evidence of a prison in Poland, not even circumstanial. A CIA plane landed in Poland. Hundreds more landed all over England, Germany, etc. <BR/><BR/>But BR, I never heard much from any Democratic politician making an issue of this. Media yes, at first, but since then nothing that I've heard or seen. And it all came from Tom Malinowski of HRW. And it doesn't seem he has said a word about it since then either. I really don't know if or how much he is tied into the Democratic Party establishment. I don't know if he considers himself a liberal or a radical or a Hottentot. I've googled and yahooed and haven't found much about his background or activities outside of being in DC for the HRW. So I think it's inaccurate and unfair to automatically cast aspersions spin other conspiracy theories (ie.: they're out to get Poland). More likely, my guess is that Malinowski is a far lefty who wanted to sensationalize the whole deal and get publicity for himself and HRW.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163630802438176172006-11-15T23:46:00.000+01:002006-11-15T23:46:00.000+01:00And one more thing....even the Director of Human R...And one more thing....even the Director of Human Rights Watch, in December last year (I am just doing what Iggy said and following my own links) Tom Malinowski, seemed to back off, slightly, from its original claims. He told RFE/RL: "We have specific evidence which is circumstantial; we've never said that we have proof that there are facilities in these countries or that there are facilities."<BR/><BR/>Even HRW, a Clintonesque creation in the 1990s, has only 'circumstancial evidence'. <BR/><BR/>That's all there is. And that is not good enough to make the claims they have made. This is political. <BR/><BR/>I think that is a bit naff....beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1163629461749473242006-11-15T23:24:00.000+01:002006-11-15T23:24:00.000+01:00The first time I saw this story in the Washington ...The first time I saw this story in the Washington Post last November I thought it smelt. So much had been presumed from so little. But as the story ‘developed’ things just got worse. Doing a round up of the press back then Jefferson Morley in the Washington Post said of an article in Turkey:<BR/><BR/><I>In Turkey, a columnist for the Yeni Safak newspaper said "human smuggling sponsored by governments is gradually becoming a nightmare for the entire world... Are we going to cover up operations, unlawful acts, and crimes against humanity committed by the CIA or on its behalf in this country?" Ibrahim Karagul predicted the "secret torture centres" in Eastern Europe will be recorded in history as "the United States' Auschwitzs." </I><BR/><BR/>http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2005/11/european_media_see_an_american.html<BR/><BR/>A United States Auschwitz. In Poland. That’s just ridiculous. Of course, in Central Europe, the vision of barbed wire fences with emaciated people inside fits well, don’t it? It’s what happens in that part of the world, innit? <BR/>US Auschwitz in Poland on the strength of a couple of flight logs! Never mind that we now know the around 100 rendition flights went in and out of the UK. A similar number in Spain. Even Germany. But no talk of an ‘Auschwitz’ in deepest Croydon or Malaga. Even that’s too much a leap of the imagination for the degenerated liberal/left, who, like the wacky right wing nutters of old, strangely comfort themselves in ridiculous conspiracy theories such as another Auschwitz in Poland. Sad. <BR/>Ever since Poland supported the US in the disaster in Iraq, the libs have been out to ‘get’ Poland (forgetting that many of them supported the war in the first place. <BR/><BR/>Poland and Romania are being used as whipping boys by Democrats to get at Bush because they can’t think up a decent argument against the ‘war on terror’ in general (one that they cravenly supported at the beginning). That’s how impotent they are now. Sad. Very sad.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.com