Friday, October 27, 2006

Fear of the Polish Plumber, part 333


Has the Head of Britain’s Commission for Racial Equality got an Eastern European problem?

Here are words of deep wisdom from Trevor Phillips of the CRE, on the BBC this week. He said that the new wave of Poles etc to Britain are, “frankly with attitudes towards black people which date back to the 1950s. That is unacceptable.”

The remarks come the same week as the UK announced that it will not be accepting workers from Romania and Bulgaria when they join the EU next year.

Poles, of course, don’t have the same experience of having a significant number of immigrants come to Poland from their recently collapsed empire (coincidentally, in the photo above, Trevor Phillips is holding up his semi-prestigious OBE – Order of the British Empire, awarded to him by the Queen. I bet he'is now a proud member of the New Labour Establishment). Some may be a bit naive but Poles aren’t a threat to the national way of life in the UK, as that idiot Phillips seems to suggest.

What is shocking is that nobody has complained about his remarks. It seems that it’s true: PC speech code means that the only types of people you can say negative things about these days are central and eastern Europeans and the white working classes.

Nobody has complained apart, that is, from Mick Hume in the Times, who, after comparing the Head of the Commission for Racial Equality unfavorably to Borat writes:

Phillips’s veiled warning that Eastern Europeans could cause a “conflict of diversity” reveals what today’s elite think of the white working classes — as an ignorant ethnic pogrom waiting to happen.

Like Borat’s joke, the furore over Eastern Europeans is really about us rather than them. The way we look at immigrants reflects how we see ourselves. In a more self-confident moment, the British authorities would not be worrying about whether a few thousand hard-working Bulgars might tear apart the fabric of society.

196 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just beware of the bloody Cathars!

Martin said...

Beatroot,

At what point did Poland's defective economy deprive British people of their right of free speech?

Heard of Magna Carta?

The Glorious Revolution?

The Battle of the Boyne?

Culloden?

Does none of that stuff matter when it comes to Poles making money they can't make in their own country?

Gustav said...

Britania no more? What, did you just get the memo?

Beatroot didn't deny Mr. Phillips' right to free speech. He just expressed dismay at them, implied that they were borderline racist, and expressed wonder that no one had complained about them. (He's right by the way.)

So calm down. Poland's "defective" (growing at 5%) economy isn't depriving you of anything. In fact, it probably produced your refrigerator, or the LCD screen on your computer.

beatroot said...

At what point did Poland's defective economy deprive British people of their right of free speech?

Not entirely sure what you mean, Martin. I don’t think you can call an economy recovering from a ruin created by an unelected dictatorship ‘defective’. Britain has been fortunate that it hasn’t hd to do that painful thing. Secondly, none of us are saying that he doesn’t have a right to say whatever he wants. He should be free to spout rubbish anytime. And it’s our right to tell him why he is a fool.

beatroot said...

Sorry, it hs just sunk in what Martin is saying:

The Battle of the Boyne?, Culloden?

You think Catholics are trying to invade the Protestants again, don't you?

I think you should see a psychiatrist.

Martin said...

Beatroot,

The Polish economy has had 15 years to recover from 45 years of Polish oppression. The Titanic was built faster.

Fortune has nothing to do with it with the historic success of the British economy. Mark that one down to culture.

Glad to see that the old Stalinist practice of declaring critics to be mad hasn't died out in Eastern Europe. Old habits...

An economy that's 'growing' at 5% a year and whose principle export seems to be people is, to put it bluntly, buggered. The numbers don't add up. I mean, is that growth in net GDP or GDP per capita? What proportion of that growth can be attributed to remittances? What incentive do Polish governments have to reform the domestic market when so many Poles have used Her Majesty's Golden Ticket?

And haven't you all realised yet that Poles are going to be the net losers from Romanain and Bulgarian migration?

Gustav,

Hey dude, no, I didn't get the memo. What frickin' memo? Is that the same one that says Arizona's going to be part of Aztlan in 2030?

Not likely...

Renegade Eye said...

Nothing has been said that is a sensible reason to oppose Polish immigration.

Gustav said...

The five percent growth is in net GDP. Poland's principal exports are machinery, white goods and food -- which Europe buys an awful lot of. Not much of it can be put down to remittances, since the economy has been growing at a healthy clip since before EU membership. What it can be put down to is foreign investment, which should reach some $10 billion this year -- and that's from companies with pretty saavy business strategists. It's a wonder that they don't think Poland's economy is buggered.

The incentive the government has to reform the domestic market is competition for that foreign investment. Poland competes with its neighbors -- and has lost some pretty attractive investments to them.

And I welcome the influx of Latin American immigrants to the US. We need the cheap labor, the contributions to our social security system, and the injection of youth. You'd think the US would learn from Britain's example with the Poles!

beatroot said...

Martin...15 years is NOT a long time for an economy. The Itantic is not an economy.

And the reason why I question your sanity is because of the references to battles between Protestants and catholics hundreds of years ago. To liken the Battle of the Boyne to Polish immigration today is...nuts.


If you could rationally try and justify using those two examples I will change my mind about your psychological condition.

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with Phillips: Poles are racist. Of course not all, but such a great majority that it is valid to stereotype. Blame it on the long isolation, lack of education, whatever, but don't deny the main fact.

Cpt. Ryba said...

You said: "It seems that it’s true: PC speech code means that the only types of people you can say negative things about these days are central and eastern Europeans and the white working classes."

In the British city I live, the burglary rate jumped by 75% since 2004. I doubt that this is a coincidence, but nobody wants to talk about the reasons...

Cpt. Ryba said...

Martin said: "Fortune has nothing to do with it with the historic success of the British economy. Mark that one down to culture."

Thanks for a good laugh. Culture? What next: national character?
Martin, the reason is much more mundane: the wholesale pillaging that went under the name "British Empire.

opamp said...

The Polish economy has had 15 years to recover from 45 years of Polish oppression. The Titanic was built faster.

Duh! That oppression did actually build the economy in a country completely devastated by war. In 1988 the economy was indeed mismanaged and somewhat technologically behind, however the industrial capability has been literally ruined by Balcerowicz's reforms in 1989-1991, and the GDP level from 1988 has been reached only around 1999 (with its distribution, however, being completely different than in 1988). See also: http://www.kbn.gov.pl/en/science/macro.htm

I mean, is that growth in net GDP or GDP per capita?

Both have been groing for the last 15 years. See for example here: http://devdata.worldbank.org/AAG/pol_aag.pdf

What proportion of that growth can be attributed to remittances?

Minor; the growth has been on roughly the same level before we joined the EU. In fact, I believe that the whole emmigration scarce in Poland is overblown by Gazeta Wyborcza -- somehow the problem surfaced started after the Kaczyńskis won the elections, and not in 2004.

My take on Mr. Phillips: could be that the British people prefer now hiring Eastern European immigrants for the jobs previously done by the, um, non-Europeans, and he's having a problem with that...

beatroot said...

A lot of British people have said to me that the media (ie Daily Hate Mail) did not reflect opinion of normal Brits. So I am glad you lot have turned up, as this rather proves my suspicions.

Anon:
I have to agree with Phillips: Poles are racist. Of course not all, but such a great majority that it is valid to stereotype.

Would you like back that up with some kind of evidence? I think that is as meaningless thing to say as ‘All Brits are as tick as Phillips’.

Captain Birdseye
In the British city I live, the burglary rate jumped by 75% since 2004. I doubt that this is a coincidence, but nobody wants to talk about the reasons...

Again – any evidence for that racist piece of tripe? I doubt it. There has been no figures that Poles and others are disproportionately being arrested for any crimes.

But hey, what’s a few facts when you have prejudices like the ones that you are being disabled by?

Cpt. Ryba said...

Beatroot said:

>>Captain Birdseye
In the British city I live, the burglary rate jumped by 75% since 2004. I doubt that this is a coincidence, but nobody wants to talk about the reasons...

Again – any evidence for that racist piece of tripe? I doubt it. There has been no figures that Poles and others are disproportionately being arrested for any crimes.<<

The fact is that the burglary rate did jump by 75% - that's police statistics. As I said nobody wants to discuss why, which is why i gave it as a rebuttal to your emotional outpourings about about political correctness working only one way.
In any case, the rate of solving burglaries in the UK is about 5%, so probably no data on the ethnicity of perpetrators is available.

One more thing: you want to be more careful with the "racist label". Racism is a belief in a biological inferiority of people of other races. By labelling with "racism" simple cultural prejudices and national stereotyping, you (and others) risk making racism more acceptable.

Anonymous said...

Beatroot:

Anon:
I have to agree with Phillips: Poles are racist. Of course not all, but such a great majority that it is valid to stereotype.

Would you like back that up with some kind of evidence? I think that is as meaningless thing to say as ‘All Brits are as tick as Phillips’.


First of all, I never said all Poles are racist. Secondly, where do you live? The vast majority of Poles I know are racist. The racist attitudes on Polish language forums such as Onet.pl or gazeta.pl are prevalent. The racism is constantly reported in the Polish media.
I'm impressed that you managed to ignore the reality to the extent that you can deny that Poles are racist. Here you can read stories of foreign students in Poland, those with a different shade of skin-colour, that is.

Harry said...

While making generalised statements about nationalities is a bad idea, I must say that the amount of racism that I have encountered in Poland is shocking. One example: six years ago one of the teachers I was working with also taught at a state secondary school. She organised an exchange program with a school in east London, the Polish kids would go to London for ten days and then the British kids would go to Warsaw for ten days. For each place on the trip there were five applicants. Until one of the parents asked "We will be able to host a white child won't we?" The teacher pointed out that the school is in the east end of London and that the chances are very much that the British kid will not be white. Within two weeks more 90% of the applications had been pulled. Another good way of finding out what the average Pole thinks is to talk to them, something which teachers do quite often.

But if you want to see real stupidity and bigotry in Poland start a conversation about whether same sex couples should be able to adopt children.

O'Reilly said...

Brits all have crooked teeth, talk like girly-men (even the women), and they all steal dalmations! And they still piss and moan like grannies over the infamous hand of God. Get over it you wussies!

ig da geez said...

Chickens coming home to roost.

Why didn't the British help out Poland as promised when the Nazis attacked?

So now the Catholic hierarchy is organizing a exodus to rob and pillage with imperialistic intent

What else did you guys expect?

beatroot said...

Sorry the comment counter isn’t working at the moment. Every Monday the guys at Blogger.com sit down and think up new ways of being CRAP!

I am not saying that the view of other races etc here is the same as most people in Britain, because it just isn’t. How could it be? Poland has never had significant immigration over a sustained period from Africa, Asia, and Caribbean as the UK has. So when Phillips says ‘1950s views’ he is referring to, maybe, his own experience of the time when Commonwealth immigration had just started to Britain ‘No Black, No Dogs, No Irish’ said the signs in windows of houses with rooms to let (my mum remembers those when she came over from Belfast). .

What I find hilarious is that from that, Phillips proclaims that Poles etc ‘could be a threat to diversity’ etc.

The ‘threat to diversity’ is of Britain’s own making.

Last week he was on about the ‘veil controversy’ in Britain and said that the expression by a Brit politician that veils are unpleasant blah blah was sooo bad that in could be “"the trigger for the grim spiral that produced riots in the north of England five years ago". He warned: "Only this time the conflict could be much worse."

This is how scared he is – and I think the establishment is the same. He seems to think that some of the British white working class are like dogs, straining to get off the leash once they hear someone say ’Muslim”!

And what I find doubly amazing is that there have been, to my knowledge, no reports of Poles attacking other races – but there have been quite a few reports of Northern Irish and Scots attacking them.

So who and where is the racism coming from?

beatroot said...

Of course, as soon as I point out that the counter is not working, it woeks. Typical.

Anonymous said...

Poles attacking other races – but there have been quite a few reports of Northern Irish and Scots attacking them.

So who and where is the racism coming from?


Ad nauseam: this is called xenophobia, not racism. By any definition, Poles are not a different race.

beatroot said...

I am affraid Adolf Hitler thought they (it's called the Slav race).

Anonymous said...

I am affraid Adolf Hitler thought they (it's called the Slav race).

It's a pity that sometimes you descend to demagoguery. I'm also sorry to hear that you think Adolf Hitler an expert on anything.
Let me rephrase my post: "By any scientific (meaning susceptible to scientific verification and falsifiable) definition, Poles are not a different race. Moreover, those Scots, Northern Irish (BTW, no English? I find it hard to credit) don't think about the Poles as different race - simply as of "bloody foreigners", perhaps with a touch "they steal our jobs".
That's the difference with the 80% or so of Poles, who are silent racists and think of other races as inferior (but hey, if you've been brought up on all of this "the greatest, bravest nation in Europe" crap and now you either live in the Skansen of Europe or you do the worst type of job elswhere, how else are you going to save your feeling of smug superiority?).

beatroot said...

It's a pity that sometimes you descend to demagoguery.

Sorry, but how I am descending to demagoguery? Do you not think that is just a touch over the top?

The subject of defining ‘race’ is not one to involve experts – meaning biologists – as ‘race’ is not a scientific term (hasn't been for decades), it’s a social definition. You do not perceive Poles as a different race from you because you are defining race by the colour of skin (an attitude more akin to the 19th century, not the 21st.

those Scots, Northern Irish (BTW, no English? I find it hard to credit)

then go and google ad find me some examples then.

if you've been brought up on all of this "the greatest, bravest nation in Europe" crap and now you either live in the Skansen of Europe or you do the worst type of job elswhere, how else are you going to save your feeling of smug superiority?).

I am from south London with a N Irish mum and a Geordie dad.

Anonymous said...

the "you" above was the indefinite you, not you personally.

beatroot said...

?????????????

Michael Farris said...

Two points.

1. How is keeping out Bulgarians and Romanians (and all the folks they're selling passports to) going to improve Polish attitudes towards non-white people?

2. Why can't the f-cking British government just let people be?
Most retro attitudes that Poles have are the result of non-contact and will work themselves out naturally with contact. Are Brits really such helpless little children that they need wise Mr Phillips to set them straight?

ig da geez said...

The problem with multiculturalism in the US -- and now it looks like in GB, too -- is that it is typically only applied in respect to people of (darker) color.

A real multiculturalism would consider and respect the cultures of different white ethnic groups, too.

What percentage of folks throughout Great Britain are xenophobic? Since there is so much disdain for Polish immigrants, I suppose GBers prefer immigrants from Africa and Middle Eastern Arabic countries. Because, of course, they are not racists.

Top Cat said...

Its a strange topic...I've heard that often in the US (where I am), blacks prefer other blacks of lighter skin color. That the darker you are, the worse it is.

You can't tell the difference between a Brit and a Pole until they speak.

And the Poles don't have a monpoly on prejudice. If they are, then so are the Baltic and Russians...

Aleks. said...

Anonymous said...
Let me rephrase my post: "By any scientific (meaning susceptible to scientific verification and falsifiable) definition, Poles are not a different race. Moreover, those Scots, Northern Irish (BTW, no English? I find it hard to credit) don't think about the Poles as different race - simply as of "bloody foreigners", perhaps with a touch "they steal our jobs".
That's the difference with the 80% or so of Poles, who are silent racists and think of other races as inferior (but hey, if you've been brought up on all of this "the greatest, bravest nation in Europe" crap and now you either live in the Skansen of Europe or you do the worst type of job elswhere, how else are you going to save your feeling of smug superiority?).


which is why nothing is being done about these kinds of harmful attitudes towards Eastern Europeans. If Eastern Europeans had a different colour skin the establishment would be terrified of making these xenophobic comments, however, because EEs are white apparently it's all ok and they can get away with it. Problem is, that once the establishment start saying these things it lends legitimacy to, what are basically, racist views, the people who hold these views then believe they're right and permitted then the problem gets even worse.



Hear about this in the papers anyone?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/6089480.stm

no? I wonder why not? probably because the bombers didn't believe in Allah. The current climate in this country is absolutely disgusting. Every day the papers print xenophobic hate material against Eastern Europeans (Poles in particular), yet because they're white, it's deemed perfectly acceptable despite the increasing numbers of attacks and even murders occuring on them here.

beatroot said...

Aleks
Do you remember the bit in the film ‘The Commitments’ when someone says, “The Irish always have been the ‘blacks’ of Britain/Europe even before there were blacks in Britain. And in Dublin, the people in North Dublin are the blacks of Dublin’….or something like that.

Well, EE have taken over as the new ‘blacks’ of Europe. And that’s the real meaning of ‘race’.

Anonymous said...

The photo may have an incorrect caption under it, it actually looks like some old war veteran was mugged and the
perpetrator has the chick to show off the medal, I could be wrong.

beatroot said...

Anon: I think we are drifting into areas where it is not wise to drift...keep going and we will lose thw argument.

georgesdelatour said...

A few points:

1. Polish racism is largely a product of previous isolation. Poles coming to work in the UK will help change that. I regularly visit a Moroccan restaurant, where a Berber boss directs Polish staff. Many Polish workers in the UK will have Asian landlords. Hopefully Poles will return home with a more accepting view of human difference.

2. Poles are directly competing with the white working class (WWC) in the UK job market, I suspect it is the WWC that most resents Polish immigration. The middle classes enjoy having cheap labour to build their conservatories.

3. What evidence is there that significant numbers of Poles intend to stay permanently in the UK? Very little, I imagine.

4. According to today's Sunday Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2427715,00.html) the Scottish National Party is trying to get Polish temporary workers to vote SNP in the forthcoming Scottish elections. Regardless of whether or not you want Scotland to become independent, it seems absurd that Scotland's nationhood should be determined by people who are very unlikely to be still there by the time what they vote for comes about. I think EU nationals who change their country of residence should have to wait maybe five years before being allowed to vote in their new country. This does not make me a Trevor Phillips supporter.

ig da geez said...

BR wrote to Anon: I think we are drifting into areas where it is not wise to drift...keep going and we will lose the argument.

>>> I'd say it depends if Anon is Brit or Pole (or whatever). Even then, 'tis the twist of just one twit.

Martin said...

Gustav,

So Poland's growth can be put down to 'foreign investment'? So what? All that means is that Poland's a good place to buy cheap labour.

In ten years' time the jobs will have moved on again to where the labour's cheaper still, or those 'savvy' business interests will cut and run when the tax breaks and subsidies run out. At least that's been the Scottish experience.

Got any figures on the Polish new business failure rate, usually a good barometer of economic health?

And your appreciation of Latin American criminals might put you in the minority amongst your fellow countrymen, particularly when they view video clips like this -

http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=306

What you're describing is a maquiladora economy - quite apposite really, given that Poland is the Mexico of Europe.

Beatroot,

Cpt. Ryba hits a nail squarely on the head when he mentions the burglary rate. Any time any foreigner commits a crime in the UK it costs me money. Resources which I provide to detect and prevent crime in my community gets diverted towards detecting and preventing crimes committed by people who wouldn't otherwise be here had it not been for the Golden Ticket they received in 2004 - a Golden Ticket issued without any reference to me.

As a tax-paying, law-abiding British citizen the value of my citizenship to me is thus diluted.

Tell me, how is that in my interests?

Harry's story about the school exchange program is very interesting, don't you think?

I don't know what kind of history books ig da geez has read, given that every village, town and city in the UK contains a war memorial bearing the names of those who died between 1939 and 1945 in a war we only got ourselves into because of our alliance with Poland. They're probably the same history books that say we wouldn't have won the Battle of Britain without Polish pilots.

It's very interesting to note that your mother saw signs saying ‘No Black, No Dogs, No Irish’, because if she did, these would have been the only such signs ever printed. Variations on the 'No Dogs, No Irish' meme appear in locations as far apart as Glasgow, Chicago and Shanghai, and the one thing about them is that nobody recalled seeing them, but had heard of them - or that a photograph of them once existed, but could nolonger be found.

Don't worry, youy're not the only person I've caught out repeating it - I once caught George Galloway at it as well -

http://theggnomeridesout.blogspot.com/2005/10/scotland-mad-part-i-shanghai-georgie_16.html

Being a South Londoner does not mitigate your xenophilia.

That's not to say that intolerance towards migrants never existed. In 1923, the Church of Scotland published an official document entitled 'The Menace of the Irish Race to our Scottish Nation'. I don't think any Pole with a thimbleful of honesty would class compare Trevor Phillips' relatively trenchant critique with such vicious bigotry.

If anything, Poles have had the smoothest ride of any group of large scale migrants in British history; and the reason for that, of course, is after we stopped pillaging the world we took the time and made the effort to create the race relations industry - another example of our much maligned culture at work.

Perhaps the reason for there having been no reports of Poles attacking other races is that there haven't been any such attacks. This is, of course, a good thing - although such attacks are usually a consequence of interaction, and when 20 Poles live in the same flat, work on the same building site and get bevvied together every Thursday evening in the house then opportunities for interaction are slim.

Do you any Poles who've taken their black or Asian girlfriends home to meet Mama and Papa?

And I really, really resent people who have no connection with my country being allowed to come to no reason other than to make money and who are not obliged to make any legal commitment to it being allowed to vote. As well as losing their jobs to mass immigration, a phenomenon which has now been observable for at least a year, the hated and loathed 'white working class', also lose their franchise.

Having been displaced, they are now also dispossessed.

ig da geez said...

Martin writes that the UK only got involved in WWII because of Poland. The exact quote being "in a war we only got ourselves into because of our alliance with Poland." For sure, I didn't read that history book. It seems that Martin is depending too much on his reading of Sir Oswald.

beatroot said...

Martin – how can Captain Birdeye or you hit the ‘nail on the head’ claiming that Poles are responsible for the rise In the burglary rate WHEN YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT POLES ARE RESPONCIBLE FOR IT.

As it is, all you are doing is spouting prejudices. The only nail I wish you hit on the head is your own ignorance.

UK contains a war memorial bearing the names of those who died between 1939 and 1945 in a war we only got ourselves into because of our alliance with Poland.

Britain never lifted a finger to help Poland and the only reason it got involved was because it was shit scared that it was going to get invaded. And one of the reasons that it didn’t get invaded was the efforts of Polish pilots in WW II – far better pilots, statistically b the way, than the jolly old Brits, tally ho!

And are you calling my mother a liar?

That's not to say that intolerance towards migrants never existed.

Martin, there are whole libraries about British intolerance towards immigrants. I really think you are a very delusional person indeed.

George, who is also Scottish I think (?) shows that most Scots are a little more realistic and intelligent.

Jannovak57 said...

Racism and economics are linked, when Trevor Phillips complains about Poles having politically incorrect attitudes towards blacks, he’s covering up the real issues.

Yes Poles being isolated in what is effective a racially homogeneous society, may have some backward attitudes on race relations. Usually quickly correct with exposure to other races.

It’s not about Poles!!!

Trevor Phillips failed or feared to express his real concerns, which are to do with white British people. What happens when two equally qualified applicants say a Black and a Pole present themselves for a job interview? Is it possible the interviewer's comfort level on the basis of race rests with the Pole and the Black looses out?

Martin said...

Ig Da Geez,

The UK entered war with Germany because of its alliance qwith Poland.

That's history.

Beatroot,

I wasn't making the case that Poles are responsible for the increased burglary rate in Cpt. Ryba's area. That's his job. What I was doing was pointing out the consequences to me of crime committed by foreigners in the UK.

Bust as you're asking, as it stands I can do you two Polish rapists -

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/03/josef-zygmunt-kurek.html

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/10/sylwester-dymowski.html,

two Polish perverts -

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/10/tomasz-rupinski.html

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/10/thomasz-stepniowski.html,

a Pole who's caused death by dangerous driving,

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/10/robert-botur.html,

and a bail absconder -

http://theblackmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/03/adam-zugaj.html

Got any sources for the Polish pilots' stats? Did they bring their own ground crew, by any chance?

As far as your mother's veracity's concerned, I'm sure she's not misled you deliberately - but until verfiable photographic evidence capable of withstanding forensic examination is produced, then the evidence points in the other direction.

Tally ho!

Whole libraries of books, you say, by God? Is that real, full fat history, or history lite, like revisionism? Marxists can't be trusted to write honest history, you know, Beatroot. Ask any Pole.

I don't know what Jannovak57's been smoking, but it seems like mighty strong medicine. Let me see if I've got this right. The posters on this thread admit that some/many Poles have problems with blacks and gays.

These sound like attitudes from Britain in the 1950's.

Trevor Phillips says that many Poles have attitudes to blacks that seem to date from the 1950's.

And he's the bigot? Sheesh...

mullet said...

Martin,
There are 2 types of people in this world: those that think the 'no blacks, no dogs, no irish' is an urban legend and those that don't.
My father must be a liar too. Irish need not apply was a reality.
I have looked at some figures regarding polish/british crime statistics occuring here in britain ( i'm shit at linking and will come back with that), Am I supposed to believe that britain is a more dangerous place now that the poles have moved in? Get a grip: are the consequences of crime different when commited by another race or culture? Again, my linking is shit, but so far, the stories that I have read - have been about scots attacking poles and not the other way about. I don't reckon people that immigrate go in all 'fuck you' attitude

Michael Farris said...

"The posters on this thread admit that some/many Poles have problems with blacks and gays. These sound like attitudes from Britain in the 1950's"

Because now, all non-black and non-gay Brits now just _lurve_ blacks and gays (making black gays the most popular folks in Britain bar none)...

Making up strawmen may be a fun game but everyone can play.

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

Martin.

Air Chief Marshall Dowding wrote of pilots in the all-Polish 303(Kościuszko) Squadron during Battle of Britain:

“I must confess that I had been a little doubtful of the effect which their experience in their own countries and in France might have had upon the Polish and Czech pilots, but my doubts were laid to rest, because all three squadrons swung into the fight with a dash and enthusiasm which is beyond praise. They were inspired by a burning hatred for the Germans which made them very deadly opponents. The first Polish squadron (No. 303), in No. 11 Group, during the course of the month shot down more Germans than any British unit in the same period. ....” (London Gazettte 11 Sep 1946)

Tally ho, pips away and Roger and out.

http://www.geocities.com/psp1945/303/303_BoB.html

Anonymous said...

not sure where this myth of a majority of brits dislike the eastern european migrants i have found it to be a minority ,a good friend of mine is a site manager in the english midlands and hires up to 300 to 500 casual building workers a year and he tends to hire a number of eastern european workers and pays them a reasonable wage ~(i think it about 13 euros an hour £10 in proper money 0) .no the problem is a number of non european workers are worried because the poles etc work much harder even though he was surprised that most of the guys even in their mid twenties spoke next to no english which in the uk is imperitive because we are much to lazy to speak anything but english and back to the subject of lazy we have a culture here of a number of people to lazy to work and expecting everything to be handed to them on a plate,there the ones normally that have the"their taking our jobs attitude" with no intention of ever doing a days graft,im a beliver in welfare for the needy not the lazy and thats where we are going wrong and this "eastern europeans are racist/stealing our jobs etc is just a scapegoat issue why import workers from africa asia etc when we have got a good labour source right on our doorstep ,and its about time we started playing the eu member game a bit more instead if isolating ourselves with our island mentality
and as a footnote pre 2004 he hired a number of asians,his qualified verdict"as soon as your backs turned their leaning on their spades talking in their own tounge probably thinking their nicking a few more quid off the british owner without breaking into a sweat" sad...

mullet said...

but the beatroot maybe hates me

beatroot said...
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beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

I fact, I find your freckles rather alluring!

I remember we had an argument once but I can't remember what it was about. I forget arguments quickly.

Anon:
The 'Poles work hard' is the most prominent report I have gotabout Poles in UK. Poles in Poland don;t generally work that hard so it just shows you what happens to people when they turn into 'immigrants'...they work hard. Poles are not in the UK for a free ride...

Martin said...

Say No To Mullets,

I disagree. The two types of people are those who perpetuate urban myths by failing to produce evidence of their truth and those who refute them with evidence of their falsehood.

On what dates were these signs seen? At what addresses?

Michael,

I don't think the scenario I posited was a straw man. Your reference to 'non-black Brits', the group least likely to have been in the UK in the '50's, the time frame to which both Phillips and I referred, backs me up.

So to speak.

Beatroot,

One quote relating to one squadron in one month does not a case make.

Graphs? Tables? The link you give provides none.

Chocks away!

Anonymous,

The United Kingdom's language is English. Citizens should not have to feel that they need speak any other in their own country.

How does your friend explain our laws on Health & Safety to his oh-so-willing workers? Do his Employers' Liability, Public Liability and Occupiers' Liability insurers know that he's putting people who might not be able to read safety signs on to building sites?

For the avoidance of doubt, on October 26 the National Institute for Eonomic and Social Research published a report which indicated that mass migration is contributing to, niot mitigating, British unemployment. A commentary on it can be found here -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/10/britannia-no-more.html

Gustav thought I was waiting for the memo.

beatroot said...

Martin:

If you read the quote again it says ‘months’...meaning the entire duration of the Battle of Britain...and the quote was from the commander of the squadrons in charge of that battle.

Can’t get a better source than that. And if you want statistics then I have provided a link for you in the previous comment.

Stop wriggling. Pip, Pip, Tango, Oscar!

Gustav said...

So Poland's growth can be put down to 'foreign investment'? So what? All that means is that Poland's a good place to buy cheap labour.

Well, there has been a stupendous rise in exports too. And it's not just a good place to buy cheap labor -- it's a good place to buy cheap educated labor.

In ten years' time the jobs will have moved on again to where the labour's cheaper still, or those 'savvy' business interests will cut and run when the tax breaks and subsidies run out. At least that's been the Scottish experience.

I'm sorry for Scotland, but Scotland also does not find itself smack in the middle of Europe with a market of 40 million consumers. Certainly Bulgaria and Romania will attract investment due to their cheap labor as well -- but Poland holds some specific advantages that can't be found in those countries. If I was a company that wanted to re-locate my logistics infrastructure, Poland would still make a heck of a lot more sense than Bulgaria.

Got any figures on the Polish new business failure rate, usually a good barometer of economic health?

Such numbers would be hard to come by, considering the number of small, informal businesses that operate here. However, I can tell you that small and micro-businesses employ up to some 90% of the Polish population -- a sign of a darn healthy economy.

Latin American criminals

I said I welcome the immigrants Martin. Are they all criminals in your eyes - or just the ones that the US' laws are dumb enough to try to keep out?

Gustav said...

The memo.

Britannia has been gone for a while now Martin, so chuck the sentimentality and get with the 21st century.

Martin said...

Gustav, Gustav, Gustav,

"Stupendous rise in exports" ="cheap labour".

Scotland has lots and lots of educated labour - however, the only advantage that the Polish labour has is that it's cheaper. If there's a whack of foreign investment then the cheapness of the labour is going to be driving the industrial, non agricultural exports - don't you think?

So Poland will become to trucking what call centres are to Scotland. Everyone in Poland will work in trucking.

Woo Hoo!

That's a fabulously solid foundation for long term growth, innit?

Small and micro businesses employing 90% of the workforce just means that small and micro businesses employ 90% of the workforce. It could also mean that access to capital for expansion is limited. It could mean that a small business culture predominates.

And, of course, we don't know what the new business failure rate is.

Anyone who tries to gain something to which they are not entitled is a criminal.

Beatroot,

The link that you provided is to a history of 303 Squadron. Neither it nor apparently any of the other surrounding links from it provide tables, graphs or comparators of this unit's performance against those of other units.

Quotations from former comrades might not be the best source of statistical analysis.

As a source of information for this unit's performance against other units the link is worthless.

BTW, I need to apologise to Michael because I didn't address his last point fully. In one sense, yes, I understand how he could interpret my comment as setting up a straw man -

"The posters on this thread admit that some/many Poles have problems with blacks and gays. These sound like attitudes from Britain in the 1950's"

Because now, all non-black and non-gay Brits now just _lurve_ blacks and gays (making black gays the most popular folks in Britain bar none)..."

Obviously Michael's correct in stating that the attitudes of some British remain unreconstructed - however, I would imagine he would agree the broad consensus of opinion concerning ethnic minorities and homosexuals has moved away from that.

Phillips' himself acknowledges that by referring back to the 1950's - he did not appear to be referring to attitudes as they stand now. And it's the arrival of a group SOME of whose members appear to share this prehistoric attitude which has concerned him.

beatroot said...

tables can be found in 303 squadron wikipedia...

Flaps up, wheels down, coming in to land, Sarg...

beatroot said...

tables can be found in 303 squadron wikipedia...

Flaps up, wheels down, coming in to land, Sarg...

ig da geez said...

No photo or sketch or engraving or even physical descriptions of Jesus? So obviously he didn't exist.

What next? Pointing to no photographic evidence of Jews actually in the gas chambers ....

Is Martin really Stephen Colbert portraying a whacked out British Conservative?

I mean, really, come on...

Gustav said...

Martin, Martin, Martin...

A rise in exports does not come about only due to cheap labor. That's part of it, but so are cheaper materials and efficient workers - not to mention easier access to EU markets.

the only advantage that the Polish labour has is that it's cheaper

As well as bi- or tri-lingual. How many Scots speak German fluently? How many speak Russian?

Poland is widely seen as the jumping-off point for businesses that want to invest in Russia -- and that won't change when Bulgaria and Romania join, since Poland's market mechanisms are much more mature than in those countries. Poland's economy has plenty of problems, but it's not going to fall off the precipice just because Romania and Bulgaria join the EU. You still have failed to address the size of Poland's market. And since wages will rise gradually, there will still be plenty of reasons to invest in Poland (an excellent logistical location being just one of them) for a long time. When wages do rise, Poland's higher technological level will become an incentive. Some of Poland's fastest-growing companies are IT firms.

Despite the fact that Romania and Bulgaria will join in January, more worldwide businesses plan to invest in Poland in the next five years than in any other EU country. Poland is a huge market waiting to be tapped -- and businesses realize that, though you may not.

Small and micro businesses employing 90% of the population means the economy is mature and entrepreneur-based. Access to capital is getting easier and easier, as more and more banks make it easier to take out loans.

If there's a whack of foreign investment then the cheapness of the labour is going to be driving the industrial, non agricultural exports

Indeed. Funny, Poland's agricultural exports soaring as well -- more capital for that large population to spend on goods. Poland still sounds like an attractive place to invest in to me.

And what is the significance of the new usiness failure rate anyway? In general, 90% of all new businesses fail, regardless of what country you're in. GDP growth is a fine example. Take a look at it. Partly due to your country's previously open labor market, both the Polish and British economies have grown.

Finally, accusing immigrants doing hard labor for 18 hours a day at 5 bucks an hour picking fruit so Americans can eat it cheaply -- and who contribute $7 billion a year to social security which they will never see -- of trying to gain something they are not entitled to is lunacy -- or blatantly ignoring the facts.

Martin said...

Beatroot,

The tables attached to the Wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._303_(Polish)_Squadron_RAF

relate to their own claims. There is no comparison with other squadrons' claims. However, the same page does say -

"Kosciuszko Squadron is famous for claiming the highest number of enemy kills during the Battle of Britain of all fighter squadrons then in operation through September to October 1940".

Fair do's - but this does not mean that the battle would not have been won without them; not by a long chalk.

Gustav,

Cheapness of materials simply means the country's low cost - and productivity's been rising all across the world for the last 10 years.

The wage difference is the thing.

What does it matter how many languages your people speak when the unemployment rate's 15% and your brightest and best have to come to Scotland to work as bar staff?

OK, so more Poles speak German or Russian than Scots. And? Their country borders those countries. It makes sense.

"Poland is widely seen as the jumping-off point for businesses that want to invest in Russia -- and that won't change when Bulgaria and Romania join, since Poland's market mechanisms are much more mature than in those countries."

OK on both counts - although how easily that jump will be made with EU whining about Russian gas pricing is anyone's guess.

If the bear starts to flense its claws we might all have to start considering new strategies.

I nearly laughed when you wrote,

"When wages do rise, Poland's higher technological level will become an incentive. Some of Poland's fastest-growing companies are IT firms."

Yeah, call me cynical but when push comes to shove they'll be as happy to send the jobs to India as we've been.

"Small and micro businesses employing 90% of the population means the economy is mature and entrepreneur-based. Access to capital is getting easier and easier, as more and more banks make it easier to take out loans."

Good to see that the capital market is liberalising - although as you might expect, I disagree with your interpretation of the market as 'mature'. 'Mature' markets don't run 15% unemployment rates. It could as easily mean an absence of M & A activity due to a volume of underdeveloped, underperforming assets, or a lack of ambition to expand on the part of Polish entrenepeurs.

I can understand why entrepeneurialism would take hold, or more properly resurface, in a former statist economy - but it may be the case that some parts of the entrepeneurial culture have still to develop.

With all due respect, growth in the Polish economy is, or should be, irrelevant to British citizens when Polish migration is keeping other British citizens out of work.

And I'll take your $7 billion and raise you anchor babies, Mara Salvatrucha and Medicaid.

Anonymous said...

blopish

Martin said...

Guys,

I've got another Polish criminal in the UK for you - this one's supposed to be part of the 'Polish mafia' -

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=SQ2930526L&catid=7

Blogging :) said...

“So Poland's growth can be put down to 'foreign investment'? So what? All that means is that Poland's a good place to buy cheap labour.”

Martin: The argument that Poland’s use of cheap labour as a comparative advantage is somehow a sign of future economic weakness is flawed. All economies that were significantly poorer then economic leaders have relied on lower labour costs to drive convergence. Obviously, Poland will use its relatively cheap labour costs will be used to its economic advantage, just as cheap labour was used advantageously by South Korea before it, Singapore before that, Japan before that, and Germany even before that. None of these countries; however, relied on low labour costs alone to drive economic growth and fortunately, as Gustav mentioned, neither does Poland. There are numerous other advantages to investing in Poland apart from low labour costs such as:

1)The already high (and rapidly increasing) skill level of the work force
2The level of infrastructure relative to other developing economies
3)The strong legal and institutional framework (a prerequisite for EU ascension) relative to other developing countries.
4)To access the large and mature EU market.

“In ten years' time the jobs will have moved on again to where the labour's cheaper still, or those 'savvy' business interests will cut and run when the tax breaks and subsidies run out. At least that's been the Scottish experience.”
“Yeah, call me cynical but when push comes to shove they'll be as happy to send the jobs to India as we've been.”

You have every right to be cynical, but why ten years? Why not now? Poland is a “Middle-Income” country. That implies that there much poorer countries like India and China where investors could go if they were purely after low labour costs. Yet they didn’t, they chose Poland.


“What does it matter how many languages your people speak when the unemployment rate's 15%”

Now about the often quoted (and indeed just quoted :)) 15% Unemployment Rate. This stat is misleading, to put it bluntly. The Polish economy is characterized by a large informal sector relative to a 1st world economy such as England, as well as by a benefit scheme that is highly generous relative to incomes in Poland. The result is that many individuals have an incentive to claim benefits while working in the tax free informal economy. IN so doing, they often earn incomes higher then working in the formal economy. In fact, Poland is currently experiencing a severe labour shortage, not only in high skilled jobs like doctors and nurses but also in low skilled jobs like construction. This is the reason why Poland currently opened its doors to labourers from Ukraine, Belarus, and Turkey, as well as, allowing the Bulgarians and Romanians access to the labour market once then enter the EU. The prime drive for Poles to work abroad in Britain is the wage-gap between the two countries.

“An economy that's 'growing' at 5% a year and whose principle export seems to be people is, to put it bluntly, buggered.”

Not really, as I just mentioned the prime drive for Poles to work abroad in Britain is the wage-gap between the two countries. In fact, I believe that the Polish migration is historically unprecedented in the European Experience. There has never before existed such an open labour policy between two areas so lopsided in terms of population (I’m referring to the entire A-8 here) and in terms of relative wages. Furthermore, increased transport technology and communications relative to previous migrations has made its speed and impact well...unprecedented. Poles, understandablyh, want to live like Western Europeans, and instead of allowing the process of convergence to take its course, they can do it now (your golden ticket).
Having said all that, I agree with you regarding the negative impact that this policy has on the local labour market in the U.K.. I feel that given the circumstances surrounding the decision to open the U.K labour market to the A-8 were not adequately considered. I just hope that when the inevitable backlash comes it is directed at the British government, who is responsible, and not at ordinary Poles in the U.K.

Martin said...

Blogging,

Thanks for those points.

My belief is that relative workforce costs do not constitute comparative advantage - but that's another argument altogether.

As stated beforehand, a workforce's relative skills level is irrelevant when the workers migrate en masse - what is the point of having a skilled workforce under such circumstances? How does Poland benefit?

OK, so Poland has infrastructure and location. Although these may be certainly be pertinent in relation to an investor's decision to invest, they cannot be the sole factors. You also state that Poland has 'a strong legal and institutional framework'; but you go on to say,

"The Polish economy is characterized by a large informal sector relative to a 1st world economy such as England, as well as by a benefit scheme that is highly generous relative to incomes in Poland. The result is that many individuals have an incentive to claim benefits while working in the tax free informal economy. IN so doing, they often earn incomes higher then working in the formal economy."

What you are describing could not unreasonably be interpreted as being a culture of welfarism, black market working and benefit fraud.

You describe the country as having 'a strong legal and institutional framework' - one might have thought that the appropriate measure of that framework's strength would be how it cracks down on such behaviour.

My use of the timescale of 10 years was careless - I should have explained that that is a not unreasonable length of time for an 'inward investment' subsidy to endure -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4645348.stm

However, you write,

"Why not now? Poland is a “Middle-Income” country. That implies that there much poorer countries like India and China where investors could go if they were purely after low labour costs. Yet they didn’t, they chose Poland".

Well, yes there are much poorer countries. Obviously Poland has some attractions for foreign investors - Gustav and yourself have usefully listed them - however, what cannot be escaped is that the time will come when somewhere else is cheaper; and once that happens then the jobs created by foreigners will go somewhere else.

That is the one sad lesson that Poland can really learn from Scotland.

The extent of Poland's labour shortage has been apparent for some time; I wrote about it in January -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/01/polands-polish-plumbers.html

The truly ridiculous nature of the European labour market is thus exposed; a country suffering a skills shortage suffers an exodus of its skilled, while one which is not suffering a skills crisis says it needs them all -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/10/fresh-talent-old-problems.html

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/04/smith-effect-or-how-unemployment-can.html

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-british-engineer-shortage.html

That Poland is being hurt by its skills shortage, as you point out, and that this skills shortage can only be aggravated by the loss of its own skilled never seems to occur to those who press for more migration.

The wage gap is just the user end of the global labour arbitrage. The Polish migration may not only be unprecedented in EU terms,it may be unprecedented in the whole of history. One can perfectly understand the desire of Poles to live like western Europeans; but the bald fact is that they're not. The obligation is on them to develop their economy to Western levels, something which is unlikely to happen in a culture of welfarism, black market working and benefit fraud - and mass migration.

The Golden Ticket was Blair's permission of open migration without any apparent regard for the consequences not only to the UK (who cares about us?) but to Poland. The aggression and sullenness of those Polish migrants with whom I come into contact notwithstanding, although I can sometimes be rumbustious it does worry me what Poles think of Brits, whether they think we're not bothered about what this is doing to their country. That's not the case at all.

And there is a desperate, tearing irony in all this, Blogging. The way in which post-2004 migration has developed means that the only groups who are going to be displaced by Romanian and Bulgarian migration to the UK are going to be Poles -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/10/only-graph-on-migrant-labour-worth.html

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/10/real-losers-to-romanian-migration.html

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/10/only-migrants-will-suffer-from.html

Anonymous said...

Hey Martin!

Migration is a function of the market place, why are all these people showing up on your doorstep from Poland? It’s because your countrymen want to hire them at wages at least 300% higher than they can get at home. Further more your own countrymen are delighted at their work ethic.

Those jobs didn’t appear like magic!

Time for a dose of reality, locals were not even applying for those jobs and when they were filled locally, frustrated and disappointed employers got fed up with incompetent and lazy locals conditioned to welfare.

It’s British “welfarism” that damaged your workforce into a collection of the useless and lazy.

Lets look closer at the sour grapes, perhaps this is a belated lament for a Britain, which no longer exists. A country that committed national suicide starting as far back as thirty years ago. Your national identity and culture was based on a homogeneous population notwithstanding class divisions. Your governments chose the bring in huge numbers of people from the third world countries which had little to no chance of assimilating into your culture because they came in groups too large to be manageable or were so different culturally that it just wasn’t going to happen.

So sit down, pour your self a Scotch look at the family album and enjoy. It likely won’t be long before your daughter comes home with a Polish boyfriend.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
opamp said...

Obviously Poland has some attractions for foreign investors [...] however, what cannot be escaped is that the time will come when somewhere else is cheaper; and once that happens then the jobs created by foreigners will go somewhere else.

The jobs being created in Poland are not the jobs that will be exportable to India or China in the predictable future; otherwise they would have been located in the Far East from the beginning. Consider for example, why IBM's and Lufthansa have placed their accounting centers in Poland: Polish people are familiar with the European accounting systems, while the Indians are not. Furthermore, it is much easier to find a Polish accountant speaking German/French/Swedish/whatever, than an Indian accountant with similar skills. And so on. There is even a Chinese company now building a LCD panel factory in Poland. Reason -- transport costs and taxes.

That Poland is being hurt by its skills shortage, as you point out, and that this skills shortage can only be aggravated by the loss of its own skilled

Some argue that there is no skill shortage in Poland, only skill shortage at the currently offered pay level. The argument goes further that previously Polish enterpreneurs were getting high margins by paying their workers badly. However since emmigration became a viable option, the (skilled) workers started demanding higher pay. The enterpreneurs are having hard time adjusting to the new situation, and are crying about the skill shortage. Case in point: a recent story about skills shortage in Gazeta Wyborcza, quoted one businessman saying roughly: "In order to find workers, I'd have to raise the pay by 10-15%".

beatroot said...

Anon (please Anons in general, give yourself blog ‘names’, it helps readers identify who is saying what. And there are many many more readers than commentators, so let’s make it easy for them to understand.) describes the benefits of and motives for having immigration into the UK. But I am a firm believer that migration is good as a principle and one worth defending in the abstract.

Anon said So sit down, pour your self a Scotch look at the family album and enjoy. It likely won’t be long before your daughter comes home with a Polish boyfriend.

That’s right, Martin. And when you do meet her Polish boyfriend you are going to like him. Poles are rather nice people. More like the Scots than I think you realize!

And thanks everyone for a nice, but aggressive, discussion. Just how I like it. I learnt things.

Blogging :) said...

“What you are describing could not unreasonably be interpreted as being a culture of welfarism, black market working and benefit fraud. You describe the country as having 'a strong legal and institutional framework' - one might have thought that the appropriate measure of that framework's strength would be how it cracks down on such behaviour.”

I wrote that it had a strong legal and institutional framework relative to other developing countries and I stand by that. In fact, no country, including first world ones, have perfect institutional frameworks. It’s not like there aren’t welfare cheats in the developed world and it’s not as if the authorities have an easy time apprehending them there as well. Secondly, I disagree about your interpretation of this phenomenon as being a “culture” of welfarism, black market working and benefit fraud. Cultural explanations often have problems of causality that are rarely addressed. While it is true that cultural norms can, and indeed do, explain outcomes, outcomes can also emerge from a rational response to incentives, which is what I believe is occurring in this case. If it is “culture” then it is a culture that affects a very small % of the population (a subculture) and one that is not very deeply rooted and can be changed by the scratch of the legislator’s pen by rearranging incentives. Most Poles are very hard working and have no aversion to work.


“The wage gap is just the user end of the global labour arbitrage. The Polish migration may not only be unprecedented in EU terms,it may be unprecedented in the whole of history.”

Yes, I agree. When I mentioned European migration previously I had in mind the last unrestricted mass-migration from Europe to the U.S. and your former Colonies. It is definitely different from that one in many respects.


And yeah, I think we are both in agreement about the negative impact this migration has had on both countries respectively. The Poles who can benefit their country the most are leaving en masse. You are also correct in pointing out the lack of incentive for Poles to better Poland if they can so easily leave and seek a life someplace else. As you can tell I am, rightly or wrongly, generally positive about the foundations of the Polish economy and see its general performance since 1990 as positive; however, unless something changes, the migration of its best and brightest will hinder economic growth in the future (Note: I dont belive the Polish economy will collapse just not grow as fast as it could/as its neighbours). Hopefully the predictions that most Poles will return after a few years abroad prove true and make this fear irrelevant. I believe some will (unfortunately probably not the one’s who will benefit Poland the most), but overall I am not very optimistic.

beatroot said...

Blogger:
And yeah, I think we are both in agreement about the negative impact this migration has had on both countries respectively.

And… overall I am not very optimistic

You see, this is the type of attitude that is dangerous today. This pessimism, this defeatism, fatalism. Migration has always had a positive aspect wherever it has occurred. America would not be the nation it is without immigration. Mixing up people is a fantastic idea.

But all I see from conservatives and liberals is problem, problem problem. Polish immigration has benefited Brits generally. In the long run Poland will benefit in all sorts of ways from it (on a mundane level, maybe 1 billion Euros have been sent back to Poland from wages made in the UK).

Blogging :) said...

beatroot:

“Migration has always had a positive aspect wherever it has occurred. America would not be the nation it is without immigration. Mixing up people is a fantastic idea.”

I disagree. Controlled migration has generally been positive but that was because it was controlled in a way to maximize outcomes and account for its redistributive impact. This is uncontrolled migration, of a different sort entirely. The examples of such movements throughout modern history have been relatively few and in each case the circumstances surrounding them differed. For instance, the open door migration to the U.S. was from an area of high population density to one of incredibly low population density where bodies were needed to settle the land. Also, transport costs were higher relative to incomes and income-gaps between the sending and receiving nations were smaller. Furthermore, once the land was settled and labor shortages were sufficiently filled, the U.S. decided it was a good idea to close the door to unrestricted immigration by introducing a literacy test in 1917 and then the quota system in 1924. They obviously didn’t feel it was worthwhile to continue.

“You see, this is the type of attitude that is dangerous today. This pessimism, this defeatism, fatalism.

As dangerous as blind optimism?

“But all I see from conservatives and liberals is problem, problem problem. Polish immigration has benefited Brits generally.”

I am very skeptical about this. Even if it does benefit British growth on aggregate; however, it is the redistributive consequences that I am worried about and the impact it will have on those who are most vulnerable in British society.

“In the long run Poland will benefit in all sorts of ways from it (on a mundane level, maybe 1 billion Euros have been sent back to Poland from wages made in the UK).”

The remittances have been helpful yes, but the economic gain from the remittances IMO pales to the loss Poland will face if it looses skilled workers on a large scale. We’re in the Knowledge economy now, skilled workers drive economic growth more then ever. And as Martin also pointed out, it arranges incentives that are not conducive to future economic growth. Why would Poles try to overturn policies that are against their economic interests if they can just escape from those problems by running away to England?

“The jobs being created in Poland are not the jobs that will be exportable to India or China in the predictable future; otherwise they would have been located in the Far East from the beginning.”

^^ That’s what I was trying to say, although I think I did it poorly :(.

beatroot said...

Ok. Blogger smiley. But I am not a ‘blind optimist’…because the culture today is anti-human, and in the short and medium term I am very pessimistic. . Liberals, conservatives, basically do not like more human activity and movement. Greens want to tax cheap flight travel, conservatives (and liberals) are scared of immigration (even in those economies which do very well from it)…finally China and India are dragging many of their people out of poverty and all the westy liberals can do is whinge about the ‘environmental footprint, blah blah’ bullshit (as if some western NGO has done better!).

Bu in the long run free movement of people and capital and everything else is a positive thing.

Martin said...

Guys,

I'm a bit tired right now.

I'll post answers/comments in the morning.

Michael Farris said...

On migration:

Some degree of migration is a normal part of human experience. The default human condition is to move, not stay still.

Mass migration tends to be either a reaction to crisis in or a warning sign about the society the migration is from.

Polish migration to the UK is a little like classic Mexican migration to the US. It's primarily about money and frustration with the domestic political process. It's also revolving door migration. A few million may have gone to UK but most don't stay long and _very_ few leave Poland either intending to move permanently. Even fewer have any desire to become 'british'.
Of course some who plan to go for a year or so end up as permanent residents and some who plan to become permanent residents return home for whatever reason. But going there, very few really intend to be 'immigrants' in the classic sense. (nb. strict border controls in the US probably encourage more people to stay longer than would be the case with a more porous border).

For Poland, it's a moderately loud warning bell that wages (esp for skilled positions) have to start catching up. The Polish economy needs to either become more competitive (quickly) or face economic marginalization. The Polish electorate needs to choose soon which way they want to head, they can't resanitize the past and play catch up with west european economies at the same time.

But it's pointless to pretend that the effect on the population already in a country is not heavily affected by mass in-migration. Large scale economic figures are always deceptive and what's good for the group isn't necessarily good for all the individuals involved.
For one thing, immigration and generous social benefits don't mix. The more economically vulnerable lose what little bargaining power they had for better wages and the uncompetitive population isn't made more competitive, just more irrelevant economically and socially.

In the case of the UK, I think it means that South Asian Muslims are now faced with yet _another_ group that will outperform them and provoke them to yet further withdrawl and religious backwardness (the same psychic defense that's served them so poorly so far).

(full disclosure: I'm quite happy living outside the country of my birth [US] with no plans on returning to live there anytime soon. But I don't consider myself either an expat or immigrant.)

beatroot said...

I just noticed that Martin, who as a blog, is claiming that he has been "spanking the beatroot'!

Martin, I think not. 'Tickling the beatroot' might be a better way to put it...

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/10/spanking-beatroot.html

Martin said...

Anonymous,

"Your national identity and culture was based on a homogeneous population notwithstanding class divisions. Your governments chose the bring in huge numbers of people from the third world countries which had little to no chance of assimilating into your culture because they came in groups too large to be manageable or were so different culturally that it just wasn’t going to happen."

How very 1950's.

We used to have a TV show in the UK called 'Love Thy Neighbour'.

Maybe it could do with translation into Polish.

Opamp,

You wrote,

"The jobs being created in Poland are not the jobs that will be exportable to India or China in the predictable future; otherwise they would have been located in the Far East from the beginning."

Not so. It is not cost-effective for them to be located there NOW - there is no guarantee that the jobs will not go once the Indo-Chinese skillsets (or more likely Latvian/Belorussian/Lithunian/Estonian skillsets) creep up to the Polish levels .

"Some argue that there is no skill shortage in Poland, only skill shortage at the currently offered pay level. The argument goes further that previously Polish enterpreneurs were getting high margins by paying their workers badly. However since emmigration became a viable option, the (skilled) workers started demanding higher pay. The enterpreneurs are having hard time adjusting to the new situation, and are crying about the skill shortage. Case in point: a recent story about skills shortage in Gazeta Wyborcza, quoted one businessman saying roughly: "In order to find workers, I'd have to raise the pay by 10-15%".

Sounds like Scotland. We have no skills shortage, just businesses unwilling to pay the market rate for the work. Hopefully a short, sharp shock of Romanian migration and a subsequent decline in the Polish pay rate will kickstart the
sort of national debate into migration's merits that we're having at the moment.

Blogging,

You wrote,

"While it is true that cultural norms can, and indeed do, explain outcomes, outcomes can also emerge from a rational response to incentives, which is what I believe is occurring in this case."

Outcomes can of course derive from cultural norms as well as incentives. Hopefully you are right and I am wrong.

You have too much faith in legislators. I am glad, though, that we have common ground on migration.

And I second your arguments against Beatroot 100%.

Michael,

You are absolutely right to equate Polish migration to the UK with Mexican migration to the USA. I think it's contradictory to equate revolving door migration with domestic frustration - and the nature of Mexican migration seems to be very much more seasonal than Polish.

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2006/05/nature-of-mexican-migration.html

And a regular reader of VDARE, the overwhelming impression I get is that the US does have strict border controls - not on the Mexican border, anyway, with 'Catch and Release' policies being the order of the day.

Critically, both migrations have the same root - the UK/USA business lobby-driven demand for cheaper labour. It also suits the Mexican elites to export their poverty from the centre and west of the country, and may also suit the Polish government as a means of earning - how much was that Beatroot, 1 billion Euros, in remittances.

Did anyone know that Tony Blair's first speech on immigration, in 2004, was delivered not to Parliament but the CBI?

But how can Polish wages start catching up without a significant proportion of Poland's skilled workforce being on site? How?

You wrote,

"Large scale economic figures are always deceptive and what's good for the group isn't necessarily good for all the individuals involved."

My thoughts precisely, whenever I read anyone say how much British GDP's grown due to Polish migration.

Beatroot,

You callin' me a Scotch spanker?

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

Scotch spanker? Is that like a merchant banker?

We have no skills shortage, just businesses unwilling to pay the market rate for the work. Hopefully a short, sharp shock of Romanian migration and a subsequent decline in the Polish pay rate will kickstart the
sort of national debate into migration's merits that we're having at the moment.


Actually, Mart me old mate, because supply is outsripping demand for some jobs in Poland, this is raising the price of labour in some areas. This is one of the effects of migration. But what Poland has to do somehow is keep that going. For instance, doctors are paid scandalously low wages here and they will keep leaving until there is some decent investment in the health service.

And yeah, Love Thy Neighbor (alright Sambo!) should be on Polish TV screens. Do you remember the one about the language school as well? I remember the 1970s in Britain. Nasty racist place with little Enoch Powells running about the shop.

That would be simply impossible in Poland, however. No Empire you see. No Jingoism. Polish prejudices – and undoubted there are some – are a childish, naive kind and not the racism that you and I remember. I know both Poles and us Brits and our history very well, and trust me; it’s a different quality of prejudice.

And I stick to my points about Phillips:

a) there is no way he would say such a thing about any other ethnic group in the UK except eastern Europeans, which seem to be exempt from PC speech codes. Can you imagine him lecturing Muslim men like that: “I have heard some Muslim’s opinion of women (and Jews) – it’s like the 1950s!”. Either he should give all ethnic groups the same respect or SHUT UP!

B)Does he think that Poles are going to be responsible for the break down of ‘diversity’ in Britain? I am afraid that it is not Poles responsible for the tensions in the UK – it’s British culture (vague multicultural relativism) itself that's the pronlem. And it won't get any better till we start debating that seriously. 'Diversity and 'tolerance' is nice but it is not a set of valies that will bind us together. We need one, strong culture that everybody can respect. But it's not there at the moment. And it is no good blaming Poles for that.

Michael Farris said...

"I think it's contradictory to equate revolving door migration with domestic frustration"

Short story: complaining about Poland is the national pastime of Polish people (note: foreigners are not invited to join that particular game). A common nickname for the country among complainers is 'Ciemnogród' (roughly 'Dumbsville'). Nevertheless, Polish people not in Poland miss the country and often enough discover the old place wasn't as bad as they thought. Once back the old grumblings kick back in.
Also decades of a closed border under communism has conditioned Poles to regard any working trip abroad as an unqualified good thing. As they get used to the idea the thrill will wear off.

"And a regular reader of VDARE"

That's where you lose me.
My main source on Mexican migration is a book by an American anthropologist with decades of experience in Mexico who personally interviewed hundreds (maybe thousands) of people in both countries about the migration experience. Not a single one listed becoming 'American' as a goal (though that's what happened in many cases) and (counter intuitively) its far more difficult for them to get back into Mexico safely than into the US (both countries have a hand in that situation). The underground railroad that gets people in and out is based on the old Mexican compadre system of mutual obligations and not commerce as such.

"Critically, both migrations have the same root - the UK/USA business lobby-driven demand for cheaper labour."

Both the US and Mexican governments want to continue mexican migration for their own (differing) purposes.

"But how can Polish wages start catching up without a significant proportion of Poland's skilled workforce being on site? How?"

First, Polish unemployment figures are ridiculously inflated for reasons already mentioned. Don't take them seriously.
Second, the labor shortage is starting to affect minimally skilled labor. Tesco and other hypermarkets can't find enough employees at current wages. Wage rises that will last have to start at the bottom and percolate upward (and outpace inflation).
Third, the higher education system in Poland is pretty good and can turn out lots of skilled people, many of which would rather stay in Poland if at all possible.
Fourth, many Poles who leave for monetary reasons would like a reason to return. The ability of skilled people to leave is an incentive for employers to pay more.

On the whole opening up the labor market to all EU citizens is a good idea and can help balance out economic imbalances.
I agree that it's not an unqualified good thing and that there are costs for both sides, but overall I'm in favor of erring in favor of open borders within the EU (and slowing down expansion a considerable degree though I'm not a citizen, so my opinion doesn't matter...).

Michael Farris said...

Apropos of nothing:

Several years ago a British colleague lent me a tape he'd made back home about the pre-PC in British entertainment. I was _stunned_.

Apparently there were real live _minstrels_ on British tv until 1978:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_white_minstrel

Lots of other horrifying material too hilights including Paki jokes, Golliwogs, the movie "on the buses" (brrrrrrr) and England-born Bob Hope referring to the Miss World pageant as a 'cattle market' (yep, that was considered funny then).

Sacha Baron Cohen would have been right at home.

beatroot said...

Ah...the Black and White Minstrel Show...Hallo Mammy! ...those were days.

But you are completly misreading what Cohen is doing. The joke there is on how people react to Borat. Watch them squirm as he gives them a big juicy kiss! Watch how he leads them into making some very dumb remarks. He used to be able to do that kind of thing in Britain (Ali G) but everyone knows him now. So he goes and takes the piss out of the Americans.

Michael Farris said...

Exactly, part of his shtick is being as offensive as possible and counting on other people to try to take the high road so he can laugh at them. He puts his victims in no-win positions, damned if they do take offense, damned if they don't.

And why does Borat speak Polish? IIRC he says 'jak sie masz?' and 'dzienkuje'

beatroot said...

I know. I noticed. Maybe he is from Polish-Jewish background? The danger there is that Brits etc think that Poland is somewhere near AzbajUzbekistan. So they probably think Polish women have hairy backs.

But again, this is a very British 'post-modern' post-racist comedians, ironic comedy. Not to everyone's taste. But he's good because he makes you laugh and feel uncomfortable at the same time.

opamp said...

Not so. It is not cost-effective for them to be located there NOW - there is no guarantee that the jobs will not go once the Indo-Chinese skillsets (or more likely Latvian/Belorussian/Lithunian/Estonian skillsets) creep up to the Polish levels .

Latvian/Lithuanian/Estonian (and more generally Eastern Block) skillsets are comparable with the Polish (thank the Communism for that), so these countries already have roughly equal footing competing for the investment. With respect to the Indo-Chinese: I still doubt if it will ever become economical to train large number of people there if you can hire the Polish people. I agree with you in principle however.

Sounds like Scotland.

However, it's unlikely Poland would allow a large number of immigrants in to keep the wages down. So the Polish wages should move up and consequently stop the emmigration to the UK.

And a special note on Romanians for you ;-) I was in Romania last year (not in Bucharest) and observed that both the prices and wages are roughly half lower than in Poland and generally the country looks like Poland in mid-1990s. Not a dramatic difference in living conditions, in other words.

But how can Polish wages start catching up without a significant proportion of Poland's skilled workforce being on site?

Because in Poland you have four kinds of workforce:

1) unskilled (supermarket workers, construction workers, etc.)
2) skilled (welders etc.)
3) pseudo skilled (people with degrees in marketing etc., who don't want to do unskilled labor)
4) highly skilled (computer programmers etc.).

The 4th group gets decent wages in Poland already. The 2nd is emmigrating, but is now starting to get the decent wages, so their emmigration should stop soon. We are now seeing the same with the 1st group. That leaves us with the 3rd group, which will continue to massively emmigrate to the UK to do unskilled jobs there (because they are too proud to do unskilled jobs in Poland).

Anonymous said...

I stand up for my Poles (lived there 2 years, out in the country as a Peace Corps volunteer)when they receive unfair criticism. However, in this case can you deny that a good portion of the Polish population holds shocking racist notions of blacks? And that many express these views with no shame at all signals that there is no social taboo to these beliefs in the mainstream. Sorry, but he got it right here. Poles need to shine the light good and hard on themselves on this issue.

Danusha Goska said...

I tried to read this entire thread but may have missed something.

In any case, I wonder if anyone has mentioned the following three factors --

The concept up for debate, it appears, is this: "Poles are more racist than ..." who, the English?

That concept needs to be analyzed in light of this one: the have-nots are *always* more guilty than the haves.

The poor are *always* more sexually deviant than the rich.

Ethnic minorities are *always* more lazy / criminal / sinful than ethnic majorities.

Women are *always* more morally corrupt than men.

Who says so?

The people in power say so.

The people in power, the haves, for the most part, control the press, and control much of received public opinion.

Given that Poles are, relative to Brits, poor, and an ethnic minority, it is a given that they will be responsible for anything perceived as bad in society.

They will be perceived as being more criminal, more sinful, and, in this age of multiculturalism, more racist.

Because, in this age of multiculturalism, racism is Original Sin.

The problem is that many have second (third, forth, fifth) thoughts about multiculturalism, thoughts they fear to voice -- lest they be labeled as members of the KKK -- so when Poles voice these opinions, their transgressive speech has the frisson of true perversion. People get excited. People pay attention. and people punish the Pole for saying what they are ashamed to admit that they themselves think, but are socially forbidden to say.

It's kind of like that urge that adulterers feel to stone a woman caught in adultery.

The violations that the haves accuse the have-nots of committing are, of course, violations that the haves commit themselves -- but the tools of perception are in the hands of the haves -- so the haves' commission of violations is shielded from the public eye, for the most part.

So, you must factor in the power of the haves in creating public perceptions about the have nots.

An example: in my country, the USA, no *rich* white southerner is racist. It's all those evil *poor* white southerners, the people multiculturalists unashamedly label: trailer trash, rednecks, white trash, crackers, hillbillies, etc.

The *rich* white southerners are all Atticus Finch.

You must also factor in the less public nature of violations among the haves.

Rich people live, in my country, in what are called literal and/or metaphorical "gated communities." Poor people's behavior is exposed to the public eye -- you see the poor man spit on the sidewalk.

Rich people live in a world apart. You don't witness their violations.

Third, you must, factor in acceptable and unacceptable expressions of the exact same feeling.

Rich people may feel a revulsion toward living among dark skinned people -- but -- hey, largely, in my country, anyway, they don't. So you don't see rich people protesting, for example, against school quotas that force them to bus their children. Because their children are going to private school, and they live in lily white suburbs.

Further, highly placed professionals know that they can't say "I don't like people from group X," because that would hurt their job prospects.

A Polish laborer has nothing to lose by saying the same thing, so he *says* what his social superior merely *thinks.*

All this is NOT by way of saying that Poles are or are not more racist. I don't know. I haven't seen the data to prove that assertion.

A previous poster asked to meet Poles in interracial relationships. I have met many. In his autobiography, Malcolm X talked about how it was standard operating procedure for Poles and Blacks to date.

More recently, in Poland, I knew many Poles of mixed race background. Their African or Asian parent had been brought to Poland to study, married, and produced children.

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