Thursday, December 06, 2007

Polish guns and crime


Another teenager goes on the rampage in the US. Lucky, many say to themselves, as they shake their heads, we don’t have a gun culture in Poland like those crazy Yanks. Well, some Polish MPs want to ‘liberalize’ gun laws, using the argument that it will actually reduce crime.

In general, Europe is getting more panicky about guns. The EU parliament.com magazine reported at the end of November:

MEPs have backed plans which are expected to severely restrict the circulation of firearms that can be converted into handguns.

It means that such weapons will in future be subject to the same strict minimum EU rules which currently apply to all firearms.

Some countries, such as the UK, currently ban firearms that can be converted into handguns, but today's decision means that severe restrictions on the supply and circulation of such weapons will apply throughout the EU.

The plenary in Brussels has today also endorsed a proposal to raise the age for obtaining firearms to 18, subject to certain conditions.

Deputies voted by 588 votes for the proposals, with just 14 against, and the European commission's directive is now expected to come into force across the EU by 2010.

European legislators (although they don’t really legislate anything) are unanimous that we do not want to go down the US route with people walking around like gun slingers.

And yet, there is no correlation between gun ownership and murder rate. Spiked has a provocative article which points out that...

It may sound shocking to note that in 2004 there were 11,624 gun-related homicides in the United States. However, the overall US homicide rate (0.043 deaths per 1000 people per year) is lower than many other countries, including EU members Poland (0.056) and Bulgaria (0.045).

So maybe gun ownership actually reduces crime? Some law makers in the present Polish ruling party Civic Platform certainly think so. Political Gateway reports:

A Polish private magazine, with support from criminal law experts and some politicians, has launched a campaign to make gun licenses easier to obtain.

The Giwera (Gun) magazine, shooting clubs and fire arms fans, appealed to police to make more liberal gun possession for ordinary Poles, Polish Radio said Monday.

The idea is to make guns available to people in case they might need to defend their families and properties. However, restrictions on carrying guns in public would be upheld.

Cezary Grabarczyk, infrastructure minister, said he might support the idea. He was appointed minister Friday when a new coalition government was formed by Prime Minister Donald Tusk of the liberal pro-EU Civic Platform.

The latest police data published in June said out of Poland's 38 million population, some 23,000 people have registered fire arms.

Polish experts said laws liberalizing gun possession lessen a crime rate in a country, giving an example of the United States where a murder rate is much higher in states with restrictive laws than in states with liberal gun possession, the radio said.

91 comments:

roman said...

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
To be sure, handguns need to be regulated so that criminals and the mentally disturbed will be barred from possesing same. There is absolutely no reason why a law-abiding citizen should not be able to own a handgun. Protecting one's home and family should not only be construed as a civil right but as a civic duty. There is a large distinction between ownership and carrying. The anti-gun crowd allways tries to blur that distinction in an effort to "throw out the baby with the bathwater"... so to speak.

Brad Zimmerman said...

Having lived in the US (Oregon) most of my life ...one of the things I like about living in Poland is knowing that even if I do happen to get into a fight with someone I probably won't be shot. I probably won't get just randomly shot during a carjacking or a drive-by.

Yes, only outlaws have guns (handguns, really) in Poland. But there is a big difference between the average teenager or mid-20's idiot that wants to cause some trouble ...and someone willing to go to the expense and trouble of getting a gun.

When I lived in the US I did own a gun. I sometimes miss it but rarely feel the need for it here.

Jacek Wesołowski said...

One thing I've learned about quoting numbers I've found on the Net, is to double check everything, if only possible. Also, there are common lies, outrageous lies, and statistics.

If I'm reading official police stats correctly, then in 2004 there were 980 murders against adults, and 19 murders against children. That's more like 0,025, rather than 0,056. There are several other kinds of crime against one's life, such as abortion, helping with suicide, and causing one's death unintentionally, but I believe these should not count in this case (although drunk drivers are certainly an issue in Poland). Even if we do, it's about 1400 crimes total, which translates to a ratio of 0,037.

I've found an article at US Bureau of Justice Statistics' web page, saying the estimated total number of homicides in the US in 2004 was 16137. They say that's a 0,055 ratio. I don't think it's "fair" to only count gun-related violence. On the other hand, it should be noted that "homicide" seems to be a broad term, probably similar to what is called "crime against life" in Poland, and the number of actual murders is likely much lower (I couldn't find detailed stats, though).

There seems to be a lot of variance. For example, there were 730 murders in Poland in 1990, 816 in 2006, but 1325 in 2001. So it doesn't really seem like a good idea to just pick a year and jump to conclusions.

By the way, I don't believe in "guns for all". I live in Warsaw, it's a large town, and it can be dangerous sometimes. I'd been assaulted a few times, and always managed to run away, because the thugs could only threat that they beat me. With guns, it could be quite a different story, because they tend to be kind of, you know, ranged. And the idea of owning a gun myself doesn't give me any comfort at all, because when an armed thug assaults you, they have theirs already drawn and pointed. So I definitely prefer it the way it is now.

As for owning a gun I'm not planning to carry around, my penis is long enough as it is.

Harry said...

Roman said: "There is absolutely no reason why a law-abiding citizen should not be able to own a handgun. Protecting one's home and family should not only be construed as a civil right but as a civic duty. There is a large distinction between ownership and carrying."

That might be a valid point, were it not for the fact that keeping a gun in one's home makes one more likely to be killed than if one does not keep a gun in one's home. Other protective measures (reinforced doors, deadbolts, burglar alarms, bars on windows, etc) reduce the risk of being killed.

beakerkin said...

More anti American stupidity from the increasingly mindless Beatroot. Define "gun culture" and its unique
relation to American culture. This is
a standard mindless far left cliche.
FYI look at the gun ownership rates in Switzerland.

The real motivation is for the far left to maintain control. Crime is a distinct issue that should be discussed minus the far left mindless cliches.

Crime rates are on the rise in old Europe. This standard far left mindrot points to riots in New Orleans and ignores them in Malmo
and Paris.

The obvious point that people who tend to riot are unemployed. This would point at the excessive benefits dehumanizing its recipients. In the wacky demented Eurosocialist world it is great to pat someone on the head and hand them a welfare check forever.

If you want to reduce crime keep socialists away from policy.

As far as guns and crime go you are
ignorant. Gun ownership is higher in Vermont than NYC. However, crime rates adjusted for population are higher in NYC.

beatroot said...

?

Anonymous said...

It is hard to draw sociological lessons across national and cultural lines; the American experience with weapons is and will always be much different than the Polish one.

Switzerland has universal adult gun ownership and almost no gun crime, while Britain has almost no private handgun possession and has experienced an exploding crime rate. Do any of these facts mean anything in the Polish context? Maybe. But maybe not.

US scholar John Lott has done extensive work on the sociological data on US gun ownership - his findings are summed up in the title of his well-known and well-received book, "More Guns, Less Crime," which discusses this issue in fascinating detail.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

nemeczek said...

It is highly unlikely that making guns more available in Poland would lower the country's homicide rate. As correlation does not automatically imply causation, the alleged link between higher gun ownership and lower overall homicide rate in the US than in Poland (the claim in itself verges on ridiculous) is, at best, weak. It seems more logical to correlate the homicide rate to, among other factors, the GDP and draw a conclusion that the poor are more likely to kill/be killed. BTW, the rate of gun-related homicide in the US is 700% of the corresponding rate in Poland. Is it not because of more guns on the street? Besides, the gun laws in certain US states are more lenient BECAUSE these states have lower gun-crime rates, not the other way round.

roamer said...

People who believe in gun control are ignorant, superstitious or stupid. Violence is not caused by inanimate objects. Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws, including gun-control laws. Therefore, the only accomplishment of gun-control laws is to assure the criminals that their victims will be unarmed.
When the state of Florida was considering a law allowing honest citizens to carry concealed weapons,liberals became virtually hysterical. They were certain the murder rate would skyrocket and that there would be shootings on every street corner and at supermarket checkout counters. The law was passed, and the murder rate did not skyrocket. Nor did hundreds of thousands of Floridians apply for concealed-weapon permits. After all, lugging around a pound or so of iron is inconvenient.

What their hysteria revealed, however, was how far removed from reality elitists are. How could any sane person imagine that his fellow citizens would suddenly go berserk if they had access to a firearm? It shows you what low opinion elitists have of their fellow man.
Another point to consider about gun control is that no criminal attacks an innocent person in the presence of the police. Even if the victim can get to a telephone, he has to deal with the criminal until the police arrive. So ask yourself: How do you plan to deal with a violent criminal? The best thing to do is shoot the villain.

I. Love said...

People who begin a post by writing...

"People who believe in ____ are ignorant, superstitious or stupid"

... are flaming assholes and I never read the rest of their posts.

nemeczek said...

"The law was passed, and the murder rate did not skyrocket"

Is this a way of saying that the murder rate did indeed increase but there was no large-scale slaughter of pensioners? Obviously, while you go past some saturation level it does not really matter how many more guns you introduce into a community. By that time, all the criminals, psychos, misfits, NRA supporters are already armed to the teeth. While guns themselves do not kill people, they make it so much easier.

beatroot said...

Beakytit just gets worse. He starts with a personal insult (mindless) and then goes on to demonstrate that he hasn’t even read the post.

Anon, however, said: Switzerland has universal adult gun ownership and almost no gun crime…

This was the point I was getting at. I was in Switzerland for quite some time once, and every male I met had a gun under the bed. It was a little gift from army service.

So ‘the gun’ is not the point. A gun is an inanimate object. The availability of guns is not the point – it is about the culture that produces people who want to pull the trigger. So gun laws debate are a red herring.

W.L. Love said...

I thought people produce culture.

And people make, sell, buy and use guns.

And some guns are more animate, so to speak, than others. Automatic weapons have more killing power than semi-automatic weapons which have more killing power than more conventional weapons.

So, too, with the bigger weaponry -- different kinds of bombs capable of killing a person or two all the way up to this or that warhead capable of destroying a good chunk of the world.

Shouldn't we at least make it more difficult for people to get bigger and bigger and deadlier and deadlier weapons?

F. Love said...

Chris Rock's $5000 Bullets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFcVwDw4YLE

beatroot said...

Again you are fixated on the weaponary and not what causes them to be used. Or not.

Lady in a Beret (Not Che) said...

You're so right Mr. Beatroot!

It is the culture!

Marilyn Manson!

Rock and Roll!

Przystanek Woodstock!

It's reasuring to see that such a nice young man agrees with us!

Anonymous said...

I agree with F. Love..

Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beatroot said...

You're so right Mr. Beatroot!

It is the culture!

Marilyn Manson!

Rock and Roll!

Przystanek Woodstock!

It's reasuring to see that such a nice young man agrees with us!


That is not what I meant at all. What is Przystanek Woodstock! got to do with gun crime?

Gun crime is mainly between gangs here. It's nothing to do rock and roll. Ot Owsiak.

beakerkin said...

Beatroot

The notion of gun culture is a creation of far left imbecility. The entire notion is created by the mindless minions of Marx. A rational
look at the historical record shows a direct relationship between Communists with guns and death. Repeated examples show communist use starvation as a tool.

The post reeks of mindless anti American far left imbecility. Explain the rising crime rates in old Europe. Riots that take place in Paris and Malmo are a reaction to Euroelitist delusions.

Let me know when you want to discuss Marxist planned starvation,
class genocide and culture of theft. Repeated applications of this stupidity get similar results and the faithful never learn.

beatroot said...

I suggest you actually finally read the post. Or at least, try and understand it.

Mohair Beret Liberation Front said...

A debt collector’s job can be a dangerous one, as employees of an energy supplying company in Slupsk, northern Poland, found out.

When they arrived at the house of an elderly woman defaulting on her electricity bill payments, she welcomed them with a gun in her hand, ordering the men to leave the premises

N. Love said...

Of course it's not rock and roll.

It's bowling.

Michael Moore proved that in Bowling for Columbine.

beatroot said...

Granny gunner is there

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/human-interest/?id=70894

beakerkin said...

Beatroot

I did read the post and your smarmy
anti American arrogance is quite evident. The entire gun culture bit is a Marxist far left staple. However, we have seen the results of what happens when Marxists disarm the public.

The notion of "gun culture" itself is anti American fiction. However, the usual suspects culture of class
genocide is very real and evident.

beatroot said...

The idea of gun culture is anti-American?

What kind of gibberirsh are you now speakin, Tweaky?

The idea itself is an American term, first coined here...

Richard Hofstadter, America as a Gun Culture, American Heritage, October 1970...

Was that American an anti-American?

And you can't have understood the post because you seem to be commenting on another one...as usual.

Jacek Wesołowski said...

Beatroot,

You say the culture is the point, rather than guns. I think these are two sides of the same issue. The "problem with guns" exists, when two (at least) conditions are met: a) people tend to use firearms carelessly, b) there is a high availability of guns. So, a trigger-happy person without a gun is relatively harmless, as is a reasonable Swiss adult with a piece of artillery under his bed. But a trigger-happy person with a gun means a potential problem.

The trouble is, you can't change the culture with a flip of a switch. You can't tell people "all right, here are the toys, just promise you'll be nice with them".

On one hand this means you're right by saying that the object called gun is not the true point of the debate. If the culture is "proper" (that is: people are not trigger-happy), then making guns available will not cause it to change. At least not immediately.

But, if the culture is not so "proper", then one of the conditions mentioned is met, and the other becomes the trigger of violence. The gun as an object, while still not the point, becomes the center of the debate.

This is where we're likely to disagree, but I think we don't have a "proper" culture in Poland. I think common thugs don't use guns, simply because being caught with one means getting on a fast lane to jail. If this restriction is lifted, then I may as well start eating pizza on a daily basis, because the ability to run fast will cease to be of real use.

On the other hand, introduction of a firearm ban in the US would not solve problems their culture faces, but could at least reduce the number of casualties. This is, of course, a speculation on my part, not a fact, so a discussion would be needed. But it would not be pointless.

jannowak57 said...

Firstly the term “gun culture” is an idiotic over simplification of the whole issue. People who own guns in the US break down into three categories the target shooters and hunters legitimate sportsman, the fearful masses and the criminal element. The first group is statistically significant the second group is massive and the third is relatively tiny.

The second group is the most significant “fearful masses”, somewhere along the line these people have lost there faith that law enforcement and the courts are doing their job therefore they are the last line of defence for themselves, their families and their property. This view crosses lines of education, affluence and race.

The purchase of a firearm for self defence is at best a questionable action, it will be unlikely that you we get to it fast enough or for that matter use it with enough proficiency to do you any good.

If there is a growing number of people in Poland feeling insecure then they are likely to be better served by making law enforcement and the courts work effectively. Along with making sure that the social safety net prevents the existence of an underclass.

The US example is case study in failure.

Kuba Love said...

Why do people in the US feel so insecure and unsafe?

Is there reallygrowing number of people in Poland who feel unsafe? If so, why?

Anonymous said...

I live in the US, and I don't feel unsafe. I've got a shotgun in my closet, and any yahoo who tries to break down my door to steal my plasma TV will be blown off of the porch forthwith.

Ask anybody who lived in New Orleans during Katrina whether it makes sense for people to have guns with them, "just in case."

beakerkin said...

Beatroot

Your imbecility is astounding in that
you ponder if Americans can be anti-
American. This is an amazing comment considering some of the people you ASSociate with.

Lets be 100% blunt as you have made as ASS out of yourself when I used similar logic. You were outraged that I tied Ren to Pol Pot, Stalin, Jim Jones, Bill Ayers and other societial pariahs despite the fact that all of the above clearly share a common philosophy. There is clearly a class genocide culture associated with communism. The historical relationship is factual unlike your crackpot gun culture bit.

The post is your usual anti-American smarmy bit. Moreover,
you tend to feign ignorance when your obtuseness and amoral world view get questioned. You did the same thing on the other post when you took a similar swipe at America
on a post about a local matter. Rather, than say the point was extraneous and move ahead you pretend this is fiction. You could have wrote this post without the gun culture idiocy and discussed it as a local Polish matter.

beatroot said...

I give up.

opamp said...

If there is a growing number of people in Poland feeling insecure

There is not. See this statistics: the number of people feeling insecure was highest in the 1990s. Since then we had a constant downward trend.

Let us have a look at the actual crime statistics. I have made a graph of data (relative number of crimes in various categories)
here.

What you can see, is that for most crimes their number peaked around 2001-2003 and was declining since.
Both statistics mirror my personal feelings, that living in Poland is much safer now than it was in the 1990s.

then they are likely to be better served by making law enforcement and the courts work effectively.

Spot on. The push for gun ownership came in 1990s, when the crime rate increased sharply and the police was woefully ineffective. Since then we had improvement in both the living conditions (meaning less motivation for crime) and police effectiveness (meaning a better deterrent). So, what Poland actually needs is continued reform of the justice system (it is still to slow).

Widespread handgun ownership is acknowledgement of the ineffectiveness of the state. The whole idea of the state is that it should have monopoly on violence. Legalizing guns is acknowledging that the state cannot enforce its monopoly. (Of course, the U.S. people are unable to comprehend that idea, since they believe that they need guns to protect themselves from the state. Which is somewhat naive, given that the state has weapons with greater firepower.)

There is no good evidence that widespread gun ownership will serve as a deterrent. In my opinion it will only lead to deadly shootings during burglaries and such, as the thief will bring his own weapon with him to counter the possible home owner's response.

The problem in Poland is people who want to blindly implement American solutions in a European country.

beatroot said...

You see, Beakthing, that is the way to comment on this blog. Great stuff, Opamp.

beakerkin said...

Beatroot

I suspected you lacked the courage and class to note the obvious. The gun culture bit is standard far left BS whose dance number is ignore our historical record but lets indict America for every slight no mattter how absurd. Riots in NO are proof that America is in decline. Yet repeated riots in Paris, Malmo and Europe are just events talked up by reactionaries.

The culture of class genocide and crimes against humanity perpetrated
by Communists is real. It is certainly far more evident by the avalanche of the historical records. Tell us how the souless one's brand X Trotskyism is exempt from historical precedents. Would you be as charitable with a nut who
decided he was a Roehm Nazis who has nothing to do with the Holocaust?

The argument about Poland's gun laws should be decided by the Polish people. They are quite capable of doing so without far left condescending windbags bringing America into the mix.

Anonymous said...

Beetroot, while I disagree with Beaky's invective, I agree with his observation that you are apt to engage in mindless America bashing, the likes of which pops up in even the most unexpected places, such as a discussion of the crime rate in Poland. Only ingrates insult their best friends behind their back. Be honest, you're not really English, you're really French, aren't you?

n. love said...

If somebody thinks he's going to get his plasma tv ripped off, that person is fearful and insecure, especially so if that individually additionally props up a shotgun next to his door. But then again, I guess he figures the criminal will knock so things will surely turn out just fine.

Opamp: "Since then we had improvement in both the living conditions (meaning less motivation for crime)"

Sounds like a bleeding heart liberal argument to me. But it makes a lot of sense. Go figure that the people who commit violent crimes tend to be desperate.

I'm wondering though how much fear is manufactured through the media.

Finally, does anybody want to set up a collection to raise funds so we can fully arm and parachute Beakerkin and his various personnas (allowing him to disagree with himself) into North Korea?

beatroot said...

Anon - (yawn) can you point to somewhere in the post above, or the comments I have put below, which constitutes 'American bashing'. Again, I think you have not read, or understood, what I have been saying. If you look again, you will see the opposite.

Once more: the anti-Charlton Heston and the Charlton heston brigade are missing the point with their obsession with the right or otherwise to own a gun.

That is all I have been saying. Nothing anti-American about that. Period.

n.love - I second that motion!

Harry said...

Beakyfuckwit: you are one of the finest recruiters that Al-Qaeda possesses. Well done in your continuing efforts to prove that Americans are slime who need to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Unfortunately for your master Bin Laden, the posters here are not going to judge the entire American nation on the basis of one fuckwit. Try posting elsewhere.


BTW: love how you say that BR lacks courage. My name is Harry and I am very easy to find in Warsaw. If you ever want to be an obnoxious fuckwit to my face instead of while hiding behind your keyboard, feel free.

Anonymous said...

Beetroot: we do not want to go down the US route with people walking around like gun slingers.

No snarky commentary about Americans there, no sir. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

beatroot said...

The full quote is: European legislators (although they don’t really legislate anything) are unanimous that we do not want to go down the US route with people walking around like gun slingers.

Notice the difference?

Is that the best you can do?

n. love said...

Why consign all folks who find Charleton Heston and the NRA objectional to being obsessed with doing away with the right to own a gun?

That's not the point at all with most such folks.

Even Michael Moore has no problems with the right to own a gun.

But what kind of gun? Should people have the right to go to a department store in an already violent neighborhood to buy a semi-automatic weapon and hollow or exploding bullets?

And did Charleton Heston have to go to have an NRA rally in Littleton, Colorado right after the Colombine killings? Did he and his bunch have to go to Flint, Michigan to do the same immediately after a first grade boy shot and killed a first grade girl (after he found a gun in the house of his uncle who was taking care of him because his mother was forced to work two jobs 90 miles away each day to get her "welfare to work" benefits)?

Forget comparing Poland with the US. Compare the US to Canada where there are a lot more guns but proportionately much less gun-related crime.

Violence is as American as apple pie as H. Rap Brown and more than a few other folks have noted. Shoot 'em up and bombs away before any discussion or negotiation. God is on America's side. Might makes right. And what's good for Exxon, Haliburton and Blackwater is good for the US.

Renegade Eye said...

Anti-gun atitudes were popular in the 1990s under Bill Clinton. I'm sure the Democrats received pacifist and left liberal votes. The Democrats whether for or against guns boils down to a polling question.

I'd put gun culture in the same category of those who blame criminal violence on rap music, Marilyn Manson. Who can deny the vast majority of nutcases going on killing sprees, are from the USA? Gun culture is not the precise term, to describe the alienation that makes someone snap.

I don't know any Marxist that supports gun control. At this point in history political organization trumps self defense.

Funny how quickly then governor Ronald Reagan became pro-gun control, after the Black Panthers openly carried weapons, they received National Rifle Assoc help.

No country has as many people incarcerated, or used the death penalty as much as the US.

beakerkin said...

Ren

Would you like to look at Cuba's record again. One does not have to jail people when they are being starved to death or fleeing to get away from Communism. Then again life under communism itself is imprisonment. unless one aspires to be a jailer or a capo like the souless one.

The historical record of Marxist nutcases killing people makes any comment about radom gun violence absurd. Obviously planned starvation by Marxist goofballs goes over your head as well.


Harry

You are an imbecile and a mental patient. I am not compensated to dealing with mental defectives. Please visit the appropriate mental health facility and take your meds.

Beatroot

Your lack of logic and courage amazes me. You seriously lack class
and could have moved ahead long ago. There was zero need for the anti-American bit in a post about local Polish matters.

I spent over two years away from my locale. Unlike you, I did not lecture the locals about their locsl matters. In fact, I was approached by the local government several times for my expertise in one area and declined to comment or participate.

What is about the far left that you need to comment on everything. Your
attitude reeks of a neo old European colonial arrogance.

opamp said...

The reason why the U.S. is relevant here is that any discussion on the subject in Poland inevitably leads to quoting American statistics as the proof (not a proof, THE proof) that handgun ownership decreases crime.

beatroot said...

Yes, THE proof...like they say about climate change - THE science.

It's interesting that gun control is not on the agenda in the US at all - from either side. It used to be one of the things that seperated Dems and GOP.

And I have to agree. Control or otherwise is not the problem. I wonder how much support making it easier to get guns in POland would be. It is still a minoroty position, even though there many MPs from many parties who say they might support such a move. It would fit with the 'liberalization' tendencies of the new government.

But I think it would have little effect on crime, one way or another.

beakerkin said...

Oamph

Your quoting statistics is not on a par with arrogant talk of gun culture. The entire gun culture bit is not only anti American it is absurd especially from someone who sees no relationship between Communism and class genocide. While he is entitled to his own opinion, he is not entitled to his own facts.

Beatroot also tends to miss the forrest for the trees. Gun control
is not about rights. The American second amendment does guarantee the right of Americans to bear arms. The question revolves around the definition of militia. Commies do not read the actual Constitution.

Gun control is a power grab by a self appointed elite. The notion itself is anti-American. Moreover, it is a local matter and even in insane Vermont Bernie Sanders avoids it. Real Vermonters, not Communist flatlanders who impose their morality on the natives, enjoy hunting and fishing. It is a case of leftists not respecting the local culture.

p.l. love said...

I was approached by the local government several times for my expertise in one area and declined to comment or participate.

I'm guessing Fredonia was the country?

beatroot said...

North Korea?

beakerkin said...

Actually it was a local government in VT. The expertise was on a business matter. However, local problems are best solved by locals.

Leftists seem to forget this as they run around like a baby with a loaded diaper 24/7.

Do note that Ren leaves out the part about the Black Panthers being a violent drug gang. He clings to the long discredited myth of the Black Panthers as a vanguard. This is part of a communist pattern of venerating criminals such as Joanne
Chesimard, Bill Ayers, Peltier, Mummia and so forth.

The vast majority of Americans do not want criminals carrying weapons.

Renegade Eye said...

Gun control is not on the agenda in the US, and is not part of recent discourse, yet this post is exploding with comments.

The gun control issue is not mentioned at this time in the US, has to do with how the Democratic Party operates. It's only an electoral machine. It lost control of the gun control issue because Republicans framed the issue better. The Dems are 100% poll driven.

Gun control as a local issue? When a factory pollutes, pollution doesn't stop at city, county or state borders. Pollution doesn't respect borders, neither should solutions. To localize important issues, is to sabotage doing anything about them.

beakerkin said...

Poles should also note the mental colonialism and arrogance of Beatroot. Obviously, Poles are not capable of handling their own matters without lectures from far left windbags. As soon as they disagree the Beatenroot starts off with you primitives are trying to emulate America.

Let Poles be Poles and settle their own local affairs without arrogance.

A discussion of guns and American crime statistics is relevant. Arrogant foolish talk about gun culture is bigoted and not related to the topic at hand.

Beatenroot lacks the class to look at this from another perspective.

Renegade Eye said...

This is from Mike Huckabee, the Republican Party frontrunner: In contrast, he said, the catalysts for the nation's recent school shootings -- including the one March 24 near Jonesboro that left four students and a teacher dead and 10 others wounded -- were harder to see but were driven by "the winds of spiritual change in a nation that has forgotten its God."

p.l. love said...

Hail, Hail Vermont!

If any form of pleasure is exibited,
report to me and it will be prohibited.
I'll put my foot down, so shall it be:
This is the land of the free.

The last man nearly ruined this place.
He didn't know what to do with it.
If you think this country's bad off now,
just wait 'til I get through with it.

The country's taxes must be fixed
and I know what to do with it.
If you think you're paying too much now,
just wait till I get throught with it.

I will not stand for anything that's crooked or unfair.
I'm strictly on the upper knot, so everyone beware.
If any man's caught taking graft, and I don't get my share
We stand'im up against the wall and POP goes the weasel!

Hail, Hail Vermont!

p.l. love said...

Is there a left left? In the US? Anywhere else?

An article by a Polish lady appearing just today:

http://counterpunch.org/wypijewski12102007.html

beatroot said...

I am a little confused by recent posts, but what I take you mean is that Beaksy is calling me 'far left' etc. Yeah, he always does that when he hasn't really anything to say. Which is usually. Trolling.

but the article ask's a proper question - and then does not really answer it. She keeps on going on about an 'anti-war movement' - and I don;t really think there is an anti-war movement. It's been rather pathetic, even before the war started. If we can't make a bigger gain out of such a gift as that then no, there is no Left left, and I have not been part of 'the Left' for years - although I still think of myself as 'left wing'. The Left is now made up of tree huggers and 'sensitive liberals' etc. And I just have not ever felt part of that kind of reactionary thinking.

p.l. love said...

Well, Freakerdin is more stuck in the 60s than any other creature I've come across in the last ten years.

I really don't know what's left of the left or what it is made up of anymore. So I think your categorizations, BR, of the left being made up of "tree huggers" and whatever-epithets-you-want-to throw-in-there tars a whole bunch of people with way too wide a paintbrush. Especially since you say you still consider yourself to be "leftwing." Oh jeez, here comes the 60s guy again....

BTW, maybe some of the confusion re. my recent posts springs from a lack of familiarity with Marxism. As in Groucho, et. al. Hail Freedonia is from Duck Soup.

beatroot said...

You know, I would never take part in a blog that I started in the first place...to abuse a Groucho quote.

Marx? He liked the things about capitalsm that today's left hates. Capitalists, he said, were useful because they had insentives to drive forward the forces of production...he saw progress as Man becoming liberated from the domination of Man and the domination of nature.

The present 'Left' wants to go back into the world that Marx was urging us to go forward from.

p.l. love said...

Yea, well, Marx (Karl not Groucho) methinks, was wrong about progress and one-or-two other things. But I have no interest in going back to the past, but still I don't want to rush diving headfirst and shut-eyed into the future with complete disregard as to consequences. Look at how the capitalists of today have driven us towards the use of ethanol. And now, this year, $7 billion was spent in federal biofuel subsidies in the US, resulting in a 20% increase in acres of corn planted. Investors, looking for a fast buck, have in turn produced far more corn for ethanol production than there is blending capacity or consumer demand. A flooded market has made it more cost effective for ethanol producers to hold on to their supply than to sell it. Some factories in North America and Australia have shut down completely as a result.

beakerkin said...

Beatroot

Are you in denial that you are a far left fellow traveler? Lets see you pretend Chavez is not a commie. You rationalize the historical record of communism and you are reflexively anti American.

It is clear that you are not a brain impaired souless worm like the lunchroom Lenin. You will tell the truth about specifics as opposed to the standard red genocide denial from the usual suspects.

You have not left the mindless far left behind.

beatroot said...

Dear oh dear oh dear...

beakerkin said...

No response as usual

How does one ignore the historical record of Communism? How does brand
x become absolved of the historical record. Continued advocacy of Communism in light of the record is genocide denial.

It is time to leave the Commie bunker and walk into reality.

Anonymous said...

I fail to see the reason why a people who suffered frequent liquidations in the past century are so dismissive of an idea that would allow them at least to put up a sporting fight before being shot?

Excellent. Breslau, Stettin and Danzig here we come.

Harry said...

Pretty much every Iraqi man had an AK47 at home. They really slowed down the US army didn't they.

The simple fact is that not having a gun is far more useful when facing a modern army than having a gun: you can run faster when you don't carry a gun.

mel said...

I think it would be bad to allow easier access to guns. It would be much easier for mentally disordered people to run amok and kill other people. Then it has already happened a few times that children found the bad secured guns of their parents, played with them and killed themselves accidentally.
Things like this could at least be limited with very strict gun controls.

Really bad criminals won't have problems to get guns regardless of the laws. And normal people usually don't have a chance in a fight against them anyway even if they own guns themselves. They are just not as experience with violence. They have fear and scruples and act in the wrong way because of them.

So when people speak about gun control they shouldn't look towards the real criminals but towards the normal people who lost for whatever reason their control and kill someone and the children who kill themselves accidentally. A man who surprise his wife with another man in bed can't just draw his gun and kill her and her lover in a moment of surprise, anger and insanity if he don't has one by him. Some deaths CAN be prevented with fewer guns so their should be a strict gun control.

Anonymous said...

I think you have more chance of being killed by a Polish driver who is either: drunk, driving with a bought license because they cannot pass a test, drives aggressively or is just plain stupid!
I've definitely got a better chance against a gun totting fool than an ignorant macho driver!

Anonymous said...

I was wondering what life in Poland was like. My maternal grandmother was from Poland, Galicia, to be more correct, my maternal grandfather was also from that area. I was told my Mother spoke polish until she went to school and then learned english.

I know little about Poland but would like to hear what the current Polish folks have to say about their country. I am leaving this message here becuase I am a NRA member and became aware of guns when my Wife was threatened by someone trying to kick in our door late at night.

I work nights so heard about it when I came home. You can understand I was not happy with this. We both talked about it and came to the conclusion she should have a weapon that she could use in the event someone actually did break into our house. That is where I am coming from. Guns not as a cultural thing but as a tool to preserve my Wife's safety and to give a bit of peace of mind that she had a tool should could use in the event of a home break in.

I will admit I did learn more about guns and found that shooting them can be a challenging and interesting form of mental focus.

While looking at the Polish website and trying to read through the Polish constitution I could not immediately come to any conclusion about the Polish government's position on people having guns. I then checked a few other places and it looks like there are licensing requirements for people to own guns.

What can you folks tell me about gun ownership in Poland and about life in general in Poland?

Thanks and have a safe day.

Dave Z.

Anonymous said...

"Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later _ it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of _ knock on wood _ any possible conflict," Tusk said.

THIS IS THE STATEMENT OF POLISH PRIME MINISTER WITH REGARDS TO THE MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM AGREEMENT.

do you see the logic in a small scale " What's the use of having a police force if your family is dead"

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