Thursday, February 22, 2007

Bush asked to come to Poland


The Polish government must be desperate.

So contentious is the planting of US anti-missile systems in Poland that the government has asked George W. Bush to come to Warsaw in the summer and sell the idea to the electorate.

That Bush can be seen in the eyes of the Kaczynski’s as an asset in winning any battles shows that they are a little detached from political reality.

But no matter – the government has its own way to hold together its support in the country – hounding out a communists and ‘collaborators’ left in the secret services, media etc, always does the trick.

While a majority of Poles are against the idea of having an anti-missile base here, around 60% support the government’s attempt to finish off the Solidarity revolution by kicking the old guard out of the public services.

So at a time when the Kaczynski administration is fraying at the edges, with bits falling off it from resignations, etc, and when no real progress is being made at making the public services more cost efficient for the poor bastards that have to pay for it, a bit of commie bashing always comes in useful.

But will Bush come in useful as an anti-missile base traveling salesman? That’s…er...a tricky one…

More?
According To Polish Prime Minister Democracy Is Not Functioning In Full, Polish Outlook

35 comments:

Maly Wladziu said...

You can have him.
We don't need him.
He's too thick for us.
Hej!
He's too thick for us.
Hej!
He's too thick for us!

Or as somebody opined re.Giertych: Take him (but not for example), please.

(Sung to the tune of "She's Too Fat for Me," also sung my many women with alternate lyrics pertaining to the male anatomy.)

Michael said...

The only possible good thing about this is that I've read here:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/gb/dokument.aspx?iid=48536

I wonder if as many Poles who are against the base would still be against it if they were to lift the Visa requirement in exchange?

However, it would be nice to see the Visa requirement lifted.

guest said...

Here is a comment from GW forum:

http://forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=644&w=57726733&a=57727113

It is reaction to other news that came yesterday. However, a part of it is applicable to the visit of Bush to Poland: "The polish are kissing the *** of the US for them to lift the visa requirement".

The placement of USA radars on the territory of Poland is so in direct interest of the US and so against the interest of Poland (as in case of any mess between USA and Russia - this is Polish who will be hit first - exactly because of these radars). However, the brothers evidently have their own vision of Poland's future and force their own agenda.

I would bet that they see Poalnd long term as a european colony of the USA - since long time they do not have a capable army, now they managed to get rid of any information (secret) service, they do not even pretend to have any independent foreign policy.

It is mentality of a slave - first USSR, then USA - the state that can not live without a master.

nemeczek said...

"The placement of USA radars on the territory of Poland is so in direct interest of the US"

Poland is to host interceptors not radars (which are planned to be located in the Czech Republic). So it is going to be the Russian roulette (Russian... how true) played with ballistic missiles instead of bullets as any potential adversary of the US will have a choice to make as to which part of the system to knock off preemptively in order to disable the whole thing. Personally, I would go for the interceptors...
Somehow, I do not believe the system is designed to counter an alleged Iranian or North Korean nuclear threat. It is not even about the Russians. It is most likely, at least in long term, designed to keep China in check.
I would like to see a referendum on the matter in Poland- let us decide if we want mushroom clouds in our backyard. Is it really justified for us to protect a foreign nation's security at our own expense? I think not. Lifting visa requirements as the carrot?! Somebody does not have a sense of proportion here.

Pigpen said...

Maybe Bush will offer statehood instead of visas.

Or more probly, neither.

Cheese and crackers and fistaszki, it's like Lucy pulling the football (not soccer ball) away from Charlie Brown right before he tries to kick it for the umpteenth time. And he falls for it and flops on his ass for eternity. Yea, Bush will give you visas.

jannovak57 said...

Ten missiles are good but more would be better.

The US and Bush are not viewed in Poland the same way as in the rest of the world but a visit this summer would amount to a social call only, as the decision is already made. The Russians only have themselves to blame as their behaviour authored Poland’s position on the missiles. The Russians chose a path of intimidation, threats and economic warfare now they have a result. They would have been better off to admit their responsibility for their genocidal actions against the Polish people and apologize for it.

Accepting the missiles is a means of tying US security to Polish security and therefore taking out an insurance policy for the future. The notion of relying on the main players of the EU (Germany, France and the UK) for security is laughable. One a former enemy and the other two countries who shamelessly betrayed Poland, in the case of the UK which managed to betray Poland three times in one war.

Mr. Putin as head of state in Russian is equivalent to Germany having a former member of the SS as its head of state however Europe’s usual double standards conveniently ignore this.

I find a reference to the “Polish Outlook” as bizarre, it should more appropriately be called the “SLD Outlook” a pathetic propaganda forum for the old comrades and their fellow travellers.

“around 60% support the government’s attempt to finish off the Solidarity revolution by kicking the old guard out of the public services” ……………This just tells us that the loyalty of 40% is in question and the lustration should be more broadly extended.

Albert said...

LOL.. I'm sure Bush's great oratory skills will overcome any reservations on the part of concerned polish citizenry ;) As Bill Maher said: "How in the world did we end up with this chimp?!"... Great "strategery" dux!!
..and Good Luck with visas - I understand the official roll out of that program is scheduled for some time between when hell freezes over and pigs fly.

jannovak57 said...

Forget the visa free travel to the US as it isn’t likely to happen. In order for the US to grant visa free travel for holders of a Polish passport it would require a major revision of policy. Currently approximately 27 countries have visa free travel to the US, this is generally based on income. The idea being that people with a certain level of income are less likely to remain in the US illegally versus those from very poor countries. The 27 countries with visa free travel privileges are also closely related to the top 27 in GDP per capita which also reflects in the respective income levels. The problem is Poland is approximately in position 51 (2005 data).

If the US were to grant Poland visa free travel it would create an out cry from around 23 countries who feel more qualified.

The current rate of growth in Poland (6%) would require 10 to 15 years to get to position 27 on the GDP per capita chart.

Also the highly charged political climate with uncontrolled immigration from Mexico a big issue would likely mean there will be no relaxation of the rules.

beatroot said...

Guest
they do not even pretend to have any independent foreign policy.

and it’s been that way since 1989, basically. In a uni-polar world then post-communists nations – and the UK – will align themselves with the US. Europe has no army and is not capable of defending itself. That means kissing arse to Uncle Sam.

And it gets governments into trouble. Look at how New labour in Britain is wriggling to try and appear independent of the US - by beginning a (very long) pullout, to start, well, quite sometime down the line - but at the same time staying loyal to the US. Watch how many UN votes the UK ever dares to make against the US. I think they only did it about once in the history of the UN.

The more US screws up in places like Iraq – and it will – then its going to get harder and harder for Poland and all other Atlanticists to maintain such a prone, legs apart position with the US. And that’s going to further weaken America’s hand. We have a wounded giant on our hands, and they can get a bit unpredictable.

beatroot said...

And nemeczek is right: long term this about China (but an unpredictable Russia...paranoia of which runs deep...

li'l bow wow wow said...

……This just tells us that the loyalty of 40% is in question and the lustration should be more broadly extended.

____

So now the ducky-wucky measure is loyalty (aka lapdog/lickspittle quotient)to Bush.

roman said...

The majority of Poles are against the positioning of defensive missile batteries? Source please?
Why does Bush have to SELL this idea? They're DEFENSIVE! The need for protection from a "rogue" nation's attack may not be a reality at present but will certainly become so in the future. Has dealing from strength become a foreign concept to Europeans? I ask that because in reading the above comments I perceive that Europeans are still under a cloud of fear and intimidation from Moscow. Mr. Putin does'nt like it. Oh dear, let's not piss him off because he does'nt like the idea of defensive missiles in former satelite nations. Appeasement Neville Chamberland style. Talk about spreading one's legs wide...

opamp said...

Why does Bush have to SELL this idea? They're DEFENSIVE!

Get real.

This system is incapable of intercepting ICBMs heading towards European targets (if it is indeed capable of intercepting anything, which many people doubt given the test results). It is supposed to defend only targets located in North America, period.

The need for protection from a "rogue" nation's attack may not be a reality at present but will certainly become so in the future.

The base in Poland is supposed to have 10 interceptor missiles. Assuming 100% efficiency (which is a large stretch) all it means is that the aggressor atacking U.S. targets has to allocate 10 extra missiles to deal with it (or better yet, use them to attack the system itself first). The catch is that nukes, once developed, are relatively cheap in manufacturing, so the potential aggressor can develop a sizable stockpile. Besides, in order for a strike to be effective against a large country, it anyway requires tens or hundreds of missiles. So, the system that can intercept 10 of them is going to be of no practical importance. Unless one assumes that the aggressor would be stupid enough to attack a single target and receive a full-out retaliatory strike in return.

The only feasible scenario of this kind would be attacking Israel, which, because of its small geographical area, could be destroyed with a single weapon. However, a missile launched at Israel would not be flying over Poland.

Michael Farris said...

"Why does Bush have to SELL this idea? They're DEFENSIVE!"

This is a pretty good summary of all of the problems of Bush foreign policy: "I don't have to convince you it's a good idea because it's a good idea! What part of GOOD IDEA do you not you understand?"

guest said...

jannovak57 said...
"The Russians only have themselves to blame as their behaviour authored Poland’s position on the missiles. The Russians chose a path of intimidation, threats and economic warfare now they have a result."

Jannovak57,

You are completely misjudging the situation. Get real :) This is what Russians want - to put short/medium distance rockets in Kaliningrad. They took them back in the 1980/90s when USSR/Russia was weak and had to agree to the USA-proposed disarment plan.

Now they are back strong (thanks to the energy prices rise thanks to the wise Bush's Middle East policy) and want to build up military presence in the region again. Did you see their planned military spending for a next decade (that they made public last week)? And here stupid Bush and Poland/Czech just helping them - giving a good and logical official reason to put rockets back to Kaliningrad. And perhaps Belarus. Both of them being backyard of the EU (not only Poland).


"They {Russians} would have been better off to admit their responsibility for their genocidal actions against the Polish people and apologize for it."

Again,
Why don't you ask "odszkodowanie"?

Which exactly Russians are responsible for "genocidal actions against the Polish people"? Lenin was half Jewish half Kazakh, his personal security responsible for mass murders were Latvians ("Latvian Shooters" being the name), Dzerżynski (the founder of NKVD/KGB/FSB) was Polish, Stalin was Georgian. The regime of Stalin killed 100 times more russian nationals than polish nationals.

On the other hand, Polish before asking anyone to admit genocide on them should first admit shit that they done in Lithuanian/Belorussian territories between the wars as well as mass murders of Ukranians and kicking Jews and Germans out from their homelands after the WW2.
And yet, I've not heard of any Polish apologising to Russians for the mass genocide they done in Russia back 400 years ago.


"Accepting the missiles is a means of tying US security to Polish security and therefore taking out an insurance policy for the future."

Which, whose insurance policy? When the mess will start, Russians will not think twice before hitting Poland with nuclear missiles. And Americans will not do anything, as their own butt is more precious than that one of Poalnd.
The only security more strong here is that one of the USA (provided their system works).


"The notion of relying on the main players of the EU (Germany, France and the UK) for security is laughable."

Why then Poalnd is in the EU? If their intentions are good - they should act responsible and, being the member, work on buiding up Union's ability to defend itself.
If they are there just to suck the blood (money) and make shit every time they can (like exercising the right of veto - polish traditional speciality - look up in the history books, or minding the interest of the USA instead of the EU every time they can) - other members should kick them out.


"Mr. Putin as head of state in Russian is equivalent to Germany having a former member of the SS as its head of state however Europe’s usual double standards conveniently ignore this."

Incorrect. He is much more like the former CIA-agent as a head of the USA, than SS-member as the head of Germany.
You sound here like Polish (who have complex of inferiority with Russia) and American (who are just plain anymies of Russia) at the same time. Both of your identity parts would preffer to see someone like political impotent Gorbachov or drunker Jelcin as Russian president. However, it is in Russian interest (and long-term European interest) to have someone from FSB as the head of the state. The country stretches in 9 (nine!) time zones, comprises of more than 80 nationalites ("russian" - is just a common name), 70% of the population lives in European part and 90% of its natural resources is located in its Asian part, 70% of its population lives below poverty line, extreme right have wide support among people, there are 300 million Chineese living just near the border with Russia, where the population of Russians across the border is 30 times less, do you want me to continue? How do you rule it with a weak hand...

Which country of Europe has the situation like that? Poland, with its 40 million, 99% poles, 99% roman catholic is not capable of running itself. Yet, everyone is wining about "KGB rulling Russia" and lack of democracy there.


beatroot said...
"...and it’s been that way since 1989, basically."

Beatroot,
Its not been since 1989 but since 1773 in case of Poland, with a short break in 1917-1939.

"In a uni-polar world then post-communists nations – and the UK – will align themselves with the US. Europe has no army and is not capable of defending itself. That means kissing arse to Uncle Sam."

In my opinion, it is correct depiction of the situation as it is now. However, it does not have to be that way. EU is perfectly capble of creating its own strong defence system. Yes, it will take 20-30 years, but the key word here is POSSIBLE! All it needs is a political will. And, they should incorporate Russia in this system. Russia has both technology, funds, will and military muscle to be part of it. (Do not forget, that before 1917 they were the part of it.)

Of cource, the EU will also need a political will to kick out the leaches that now are there - both countries and polititians that are on other states' payroll - does not matter which one that will be: the on of the USA, Iran or China.

beatroot said...

EU is perfectly capable of creating its own strong defence system. Yes, it will take 20-30 years, but the key word here is POSSIBLE!

No, it is just not possible. Having a nice big army is one thing, but who is goijg to control it? How are we going to get 27 countries to agree on matters of defense? How is France going to agree with the UK? Germany with Poland?

It’s a non-runner…it ain’t gonna happen.

geez said...

guest wrote: "Russians will not think twice before hitting Poland with nuclear missiles. And Americans will not do anything..."

<><

Guest, c'mon now, how could anyone get the notion that the US would ever sell out or not give two shits about Poland and its people?

jannovak57 said...

Guest said: “How do you rule it with a weak hand...”

And what has your strong hand done for you as you have used this method since the end of the czars, your country has remained consistently structurally weak, fearful and the population in destitution and poverty. Your life expectancy is lower than most third world countries. Are you mindlessly blind to the benefits of democracy?

Your positions mirror the Kremlin line.

Same old distortions and paranoia that make Russia a fearful little society steeped in a religion based on fear of the outside world. This fear being a valued currency in the Kremlin which used it for decades if not a century to deprive the Russian people of a democratic and accountable government based on the rule of law.

In the spirit of the Russian who drew close their curtains when the KGB took the neighbours and the German that remained silent when the Gestapo took the Jews, you emanate the stench of the morally weak servile scum that mindlessly support the totalitarian state. All the while with your hand out stretched looking for some small hand out to fall your way.

Lets review your distorts:

“what Russians want - to put short/medium distance rockets in Kaliningrad. They took them back in the 1980/90s”

Tactical nuclear weapons already exist in the Kaliningrad enclave and were never fully removed, with additional equipment installed in 2001.

“Lenin was half Jewish”

Your excuse for the genocide against the Polish people seems to be based on the fact all the Russians were absent and those awful minorities did it. Typical of Russian racism isn’t it? Are you denying it happen? The Poles have asked for a full investigation, access to the records (all of them) and prosecution of those who participated, Russia has refused. Not a surprise as Mr. Putin wishes to resurrect the old Soviet Union.

“Which, whose insurance policy? When the mess will start, Russians will not think twice before hitting Poland with nuclear missiles. And Americans will not do anything”

Dangerous miscalculation, history proves every time Russia is confronted with strength it never acts aggressively and when met with weakness and appeasement it acts a predator. There is no physical threat to Russia from these missiles only to Russia’s ability to intimidate its neighbours.

So long as the US remains engaged in Europe as part of Nato, Russian threats are amount to nothing.

As a paranoid Russian you should be looking to China, do you thing that selling billions of dollars worth of arms and technology to the Chinese is that smart. After all where does China go for more living space and natural resources? Your sparsely populated regions east of the Ural Mountains seem attractive.

geez said...

Guest, you have the nerve to speak of genocide supposedly perpetrated by Poles and then defend Putin who who turned Chechnya into a smoldering ruin?

And your defense of Ukrainians rings hollow as you defend a man who cuts off energy supplies to the Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus as a means of economic extortion.

Oh, and I didn't realize it was Comrade Borat leading all those Kazak tanks that were lining the streets of Polish cities during Martial Law.

But J No-wak.. your penchant for brinkmanship is foolish and dangerous. For us all. Missiles don't have to fly -- economic hostilities can be mighty damaging, too. And these will be racheted up as a result of putting in those useless missiles to please those who tell Bush what to do.

beatroot said...

you emanate the stench of the morally weak servile scum that mindlessly support the totalitarian state. All the while with your hand out stretched looking for some small hand out to fall your way.

Jan...please...you don't need to write like that...

jannovak57 said...

geez said... “economic hostilities can be mighty damaging”

I agree with you on this point, but the economic warfare has already started and completely independent of these proposed missiles. The Russians initiated economic warfare because of polish support for the Ukrainians and continue escalating it.

The Russians crudely and incompetently handle their relationship with their neighbours but their not completely stupid. They know these missiles do not take away their ability to incinerate Europe but they do make a powerful statement and give cause for Poland to resist Russia’s crude and transparent attempt at restoring it’s influence in Poland by means of coercion.

Nuclear missiles have and are aimed at Poland; this has been the status quo since the 1950’s whether they belong to Russia or Nato is academic.

I don’t believe the Russians have some evil master plan for the reconquest of the old Soviet Empire and it’s satellite states but a nation acting through ignorance and fear is equally a dangerous threat.

jannovak57 said...

beetroot said:” you don't need to write like that.”

It’s hard to find a kind word for the mentality that went along with events like the Holocaust and the Soviet Gulag. Those who excuse or justify the existence of (or drift into) a totalitarian state must accept a portion of the guilt.

geez said...

I agree with you, 57, that Putin is reprehensible BUT bringing American missiles into Poland will not serve Poland's interests -- it will only rachet up the insanity. A powerful statement? Where's the power? This sounds like Polish huffery harkening back to the days of the hussars, Miracle on the Wisla, and well... all that didn't really last all that long, did it?

And what Russian influence in Poland you talkin' about? You mean the 40% from your previous statement? And now BR points out it's more like 55%. So does this 55% also "emanate the stench of the morally weak servile scum that mindlessly support the totalitarian state"? Really, when you write like this, you mirror the totalitarianism you insist you abhor and want to fight, fight, fight. Rah!

Redwine said...

Do these missiles serve economic or political purposes? I am so naive. Not much talk about the latter.

guest said...

Ok, boys and girls, not everyone in Warsaw has internet access at home, so my answers come a bit late... Better late than never :)

"Redwine said...
Do these missiles serve economic or political purposes? I am so naive. Not much talk about the latter."

redwine,
Economically it looks like nonsense.
Politically: the USA is going to win (placing their rocket-chips closer to anymies on the game board), Russia is going to win (doing the same - reclaming positions given away 20 years ago, loosing nothing - no one beleives that the US's system will work anyway), the EU is going to loose (higher insecurity in the region plus higher the influence of the global competitor - the USA inside of the EU), Poland is not changing its position - they are not doing anything new - everyone is used to Poland kissing the arse of the US every time they are allowed to.

guest said...

"Beatroot said:

No, it is just not possible. Having a nice big army is one thing, but who is goijg to control it? How are we going to get 27 countries to agree on matters of defense? How is France going to agree with the UK? Germany with Poland?

It’s a non-runner…it ain’t gonna happen."

Beatroot,

With all the respect, you sound like British. :)
Try to use a little bit of emagination, and have a little bit of faith in future of the EU.

Do you know a saying: if you say you can - then you can, if you say you can not - then you cannot?

If EU has to survive long term as a political formation, I would expect to see some compromises done by individual members. What is Poland without the EU? - a little nothing. What is Germany without the EU - a little bit bigger nothing.
All of them - France, Germany, UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, etc., etc., are the first world rich boys today. But not nesseserily in 20 years from now. I see the EU as their chance to keep the position in the top of the world economy.

Anyway, there is only way to prove if the EU is going to have its army or not...

As to the answer to your question - look up in the history books. There were numerous ocasions in the past 200 years for a bigger number (than 7) of the nations (as well as more politically distant) to agree perfectly on the millitary matters. The "nessesity" is the key word here.

guest said...

"jannovak57 said..." so much that it needs a bit longer answer.

jannovak57,

I guess you have your reason to be not only ignorant and short sighted but also offensive.

Anyway,

1. About my nationality. I have 1/8th of Russian blood in me - that does not make me Russian. The same as 1/8th of the Polish blood in me does not make me Polish.

2. Because of my background, Russians and Polish can be either friends or anymies. There is no difference between them. I can say much more both good things (with specific examples) and bad things (with specific examples) about both of these nations than most of the people reading this blog.

3. "And what has your strong hand done for you as you have used this method since the end of the czars, your country has remained consistently structurally weak, fearful and the population in destitution and poverty. Your life expectancy is lower than most third world countries. Are you mindlessly blind to the benefits of democracy?"

I agree with your description of Russia today.
However, what you say about the democracy indicates that you see it (I would presume you mean democracy in the Western-civilization sense of the word) as a perfect and universal way to rule a nation. If so, I strongly disagree with you on this one.
In my POV democracy is not a value in itself. It is only as good as it can serve the interests of the people of a country (not general "people"). The reality of the world today is that for 200 states that exist at the moment there (strict western) democracy would function well (for the benifit of people) in about 1/10th to 1/5th of them. Western democracy is a result of about 400 years of evolution in WE - including totalitarian states, wars, civil wars, etc., etc. Besides, just to function (not speaking abou functioning well) it requires some predispositions from the side of the societies. Russia is one of the countries that does not have them. If you will be interested to continue this conversation about democracy - pls, let me know.

I agree that there is some connection between the strenght of a state and political system there. However, it is not so direct as you presume (Democracy - strong, Autoritarian - weak).

4. "This fear being a valued currency in the Kremlin which used it for decades if not a century to deprive the Russian people of a democratic and accountable government based on the rule of law."

Which law are you talking about? The western political systems are based on the law that originates in Roman law.
I am not a lawyer myself (if there are any among readers of the blog, please give your input), I still can sense here a huge civilization/value gap here between Russia (and its realities) and the West (and its realities). Russia never had law system based on Rooman law. A single thing that is as natural as the fact that the water is wet for WE value system is the existance and sactiry of private property. This is the principle that gives a person both independence and security within society. As I see it, the whole law system is build around protecting it.
So, speaking about Russia, they never had it. Starting from the first Zars (or kings), everything was their property and they had absolute power, that they were giving or taking as they saw fit. Today, they have it (the principle) in Constitution, etc., but not in the mentality of the whole 150 mln nation. Accept it as a fact, and a lot of things you see on the news that happen in Russia will get meaning. (And, please, do not put value judgements - if it is good or bad - unless you are with a Church, they are of no use.)

And as it bounces back to the "rule based on the law" - Russians have it already. Just that both their law and their (both common people and Kremlin) understanding of law (and feeling what is fair and what is not) are different from yours and from that of WE.

5. "Tactical nuclear weapons already exist in the Kaliningrad enclave and were never fully removed, with additional equipment installed in 2001."

The source, please?

You are using the same argument (I saw it already in polish newspapers) that was used by the US propaganda for justifying the invation on Irak.
No offence, but this is the same bull shit as front page-GW fascination with "how strong our big - USA - rockets are" in the beginning of every new war compaign, instead of showing hundreds of thousands of civil casualties done by the same weapons at the time that particular GW goes to print. Do not repeat as a parrot propaganda paid by the US gov. (Unless you work for them ;)

6. "...Typical of Russian racism isn’t it? Are you denying it happen? The Poles have asked for a full investigation, access to the records (all of them) and prosecution of those who participated, Russia has refused."

That's just too much. Why, when I say that Lenin was half jew and Dzierżynski was polish, you call me "russian rasist"? Those are the facts. As it the fact that tens of millions of russians died in Gulag.

I perfectly understand that, if someone from your family was in between those 40.000 poles executed in Katyń, you hate people who done that. But, polish do not own the suffering from Stalinism.
A lot of nations, including russians themselves, suffered.

As to the invistigation of Katyń, as I recall, there was one, and Russians cooperated. There was a Polish-Russian commission and it concluded that the mass murder took place. Poland lost any support from Russia in the case when Poland asked to give away the names of those responsible and to admit genocide. Russians did not give the names (on the grounds that both those who gave orders and those who executed them are dead) and refused to call it genocide and closed the case.

In my point of view, the problem is A) in the difference of the approach towards its past between Poland and Russia (and Poland demanding that Russia does it polish way acts stupidly- arrogant), and B) in the semanthics and its leagal consequences. (I would not be surprised to find out that the only difference between "genocide" and "mass murder" was the ability for Polish to ask "odszkodowanie" if the former classification was admitted by the other party.)

7. "So long as the US remains engaged in Europe as part of Nato, Russian threats are amount to nothing."

Russia sees itself as a part of Europe long term. This my conclusion is based on the observation of the consistancy in both statements of Russian government and its actions in past years regarding Europe.
The only anemy (or competitor) of Russia in this situation is the USA.
Thus, in this situation, Russia is not threatening Europe (why would they do that? with the energy prices what they are now, in 10-15 years they will own nice piece of economy here), but the USA is threatening Russia.

8. "As a paranoid Russian you should be looking to China"

:) Is anyone who expresses opinion different from yours (or "common" opinion on this blog) deserves to be called "Paranoid Russian"?!

Beatroot, would you be so nice to try to say something authentically good about Russians (just as experiment)? Lets see if you will also get the name or this is just me. :)

Agree with the rest of the statement about China there. They move to Russia, do not assimilate and in 5-10 years there will be thousands times much more chinese-speakers than russian-speakers in Asian part of Russia. Which will cause another huge problem for them.

Just why are we speaking about it here?

guest said...

"geez said...
Guest, you have the nerve to speak of genocide supposedly perpetrated by Poles and then defend Putin who who turned Chechnya into a smoldering ruin?"

geez,

Where did you see me speaking about genocide done by Poles? Genocide is a strong word.

Speaking about Putin and Chechnya.

I am not defending Putin. Whats done there - is a disaster, and Putin as co-responsible for it.
Having said that, this is one of those situations where I really do not see the sweet-and-nice solutions.
The judgement of the situation there will depend on the background of each person. Thats why, I would really like to see what you would do.

Here is the setup. You are in charge of 150 million/80+ nation country that is historicly organised (in terms of administration) by nationality, with different levels of autonomity and different aspiration for independence from local political elites. One of the republics (that does not have any outside borders) proclaims independency with the support of Middle East terrorist groups. After short war, your country is forced to make peace. As soon as you sign peace treaty, the breakout republic proclaims Shiriat law (all your former sitisens there loose their rights automatically) starts banditism - kidnapping poeople from naighbouring regions for randsome (around 2000 people in 4 years), drug trafficing and, finally, makes millitary assult on your other republic. The population of the rebel-republic is 200,000 people, another 100,000 of this nationals is living in your capital and another 100,000 in the other republics of your country.

Geez, you are in charge, what do you do?


"And your defense of Ukrainians rings hollow as you defend a man who cuts off energy supplies to the Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus as a means of economic extortion."

Once again, I do not defend Russian politics. Realistic description is not the same as support.

As I see it, the once who support it is WE governments and press, forming public opinion.
In the situation with Ukrain, Ukranians where in their right to take the transit gas when Russians stoped supplies in the middle of winter, as Russians broke a valid contract that they had with Ukrain at the time. But see whats happened, Russians put so much PR, that the official EU (and public opinion in the countries) did not have the same reaction to it. Thus, while Poland was on the side of Ukrain ("polska sprawa"), Italy was on the side of Russia - officially.

In case of Belarus - again lots of PR, and, guess what, the same Polish who were supporting Ukrain, were not on the side of bad-Lukashenko but on the side of Russia! They were repeating after Russia - Belarus refuses to buy gas at "market prices". What is the market price in the market of one supplier? NONSENCE! There is not market price! It was so purely blackmail - Russians even did not try to cover it, as the EU was on their side. Of course, how they could be on the side of "bad dictator"?
And, please, do not conclude that I like Lukashenko. I do not. Just the fact that he is a dictator and SOB does not change another fact - that Russians behaved as bustards and Europe was supportive, almost clapping (why we have to buy at 300 USD/tm3 from Russia and Belarus at 40 USD/tm3).

Those cases showed Russians as SOBs and EU as f***ng hypocrits as well as to what to expect from both in future.

guest said...

... and thats it. I am not writing any more to this post.

Cheers.

beatroot said...

Say something nice about Russians? Yeah sure...try here

http://beatroot.blogspot.com/2006/11/new-cold-war.html

geez said...

guest asked: "Where did you see me speaking about genocide done by Poles? Genocide is a strong word."

Hi guest. I got it from your post where you wrote, "I've not heard of any Polish apologising to Russians for the mass genocide they done in Russia back 400 years ago."

And you asked, "Geez, you are in charge, what do you do?"

I'd allow independence and profusely apologize for all the shit my predecessors pulled. I'd encourage and help Chechnyans living in Russia who desire to return to their homeland to do so. I would make every effort to get Russians the hell out of Chechnya and resettle them back in Mother Russia. Then somebody would probably kill me (actually most likely before I'd have a chance to accomplish any of this).

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Anonymous said...

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