Tuesday, July 07, 2009

Madonna versus the Black Madonna in Poland


So outraged are some of the more religiously minded in Poland, that they are organizing a mass pray-in to keep her out of Warsaw on August 15.

She is the Material Girl who charges outrageous sums of money for concerts - the tickets here have been retailing at eye-watering prices - around 250 euro for a seated ticket. She’s a Kabbalist, exhibitionist, African baby-poacher. She is the conical - titted, self promotional genius/trickster; Nelson Mandela has been out of prison longer than the last decent song she wrote was in the charts; she can’t sing and I don’t really like her muscles.

There’s lots of things you can say about Madonna. But I never thought she was Satan in ripped fishnets.

But…thenews.pl reports:

Several forms of protest are being planned against the Madonna concert in Poland on 15 August, including mass prayer sessions.
Religious groups are outraged that the concert is being held on a Catholic feast day celebrating the Assumption of Holy Mary.

And the protestors have received the surprise support from former Solidarity leader and ex-president Lech Walesa. “It is true. I support this protest,” he told the Dziennik daily.

Head of the regional Mazowieckie council, Marian Brudzynski, is coordinating two weeks of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy prayer on the rosary and an outdoor mass at Warsaw City Hall, all in the name of blocking the pop star’s concert in the capital.

Blimey! August 15 is also a national holiday - Army Day. Sounds rather secular. But this is the day, in 1920, when the Miracle of the Vistula occurred - when General Pilsudski’s men - with, so many think, a little help from the Man Upstairs - beat back Trotsky’s Red Army and saved the whole of Europe from the communist menace.

President Kaczynski - not, I imagine, from Madonna’s natural fan-base - has said that there is nothing constitutionally to stop the woman from giving a concert.

But Madonna - the singer - is popular here. she sold out those very expensive tickets. Easily. The battle of the Madonnas - the black one versus the white - is a delicious example of Poland’s version of the Culture Wars.

80 comments:

Mark said...

250 euros to see some flotsam and jetsam from a bygone era, which was passe even from the beginning?

I wonder if this event was planned because now young Poles have cash to waste?

Anonymous said...

"Satin in ripped fishnets."

Who's "Satin"?

Anyway, I can't say what I truly want to say about Mad...er, I mean, Esther...out of fear that she'll take me to the English courts and sue me for it.

peter said...

Disposable income is not cash to waste, Mark. It is an outrageous amount of money for a ticket but still she easily sold those tickets. And it is isn't the young just buying them - she appeals, still accross a coupke of geberations.

So she does have support here. What a section of the population want, however, is that there religious sensibility be recognised at the expense of others. We have already seen this with the ban on trade on these holidays. Now they want to ban anything they see as being offensive.

They are in the minority but they seem to control the majority. Time that changed.

Hugo said...

here here Peter!

Czarny Kot said...

While I personally cannot stand Madonna, calling for her concert to be banned and holding a mass prayer meeting to call for divine help, is absolutely ridiculous.

On a more serious note, it is a case of people trying to force their religious beliefs on others. There is a dangerous tendency to equate being Polish with being a pious Catholic, with the result that non-religious people are seen as somehow unpatriotic and less Polish.

Anyway, haven't true believers (and God for that matter) got anything more important to worry about?

People should be free to spend astronomical sums on a Madonna concert. People should be free to hold mass prayer meetings against a Madonna concert (but not ban it) and I should be free to think that both groups are fools.

jannowak57 said...

The Madonna concert is a private function, if people are opposed to her views and form of entertainment they should refrain from purchasing a ticket. Those who choose to pay and watch are free to do so, emphasis on the word free.

“There is a dangerous tendency to equate being Polish with being a pious Catholic, with the result that non-religious people are seen as somehow unpatriotic and less Polish.”

There is also an intense desire for conformity, which comes from decades of totalitarian rule.

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beatroot said...

There is also an intense desire for conformity, which comes from decades of totalitarian rule.



Is that true, Jan? Certainly, anyone seen as "different" is here is singled out for some unwanted attention. poeple staring at the disabled, etc...

heat_seeker said...

Jan, not every bad quality can be attributed to 'decades of totalitarian rule'... The mindset that Czarny Kot is referring to has been present in Polish society for centuries.. long before WW2 and Warsaw Pact. Have you considered that maybe it's just good ol' polish 'warcholstwo' and narrow-mindedness?

roman said...

Narrow-mindedness? I see that heat-seeker is at his usual cheery self with his casual sweeping general charactarization of the Polish people. Oh, my...
OT: Madonna, like so many "AGING" entertainers rely heavily on the low hanging fruit factor. The Christian church happens to be ripe for the pickins. Hanging herself dressed as a slut on a cross bearing the name of the revered "virgin" should by no means be construed as an insult to Christians? Hello.. I would like to see her come up with an act depicting the Prophet Mohammed and some kind of sexual interplay. What are the chances of that happening. Equal respect for all religions? I think not.

Mark said...

Bulls-eye, Roman.

I always thought that her anti-Catholic shtick and unappetizing caricature of femininity are meant to compensate, for what I see, as a general lack of talent in her chosen field. However, it may play with some people who are already so predisposed (and have 250 euros to waste).

You're absolutely right - the progressive world and its "entertainers" have a big double standard here.

Czarny Kot said...

Of course, the vast majority of Poles are Catholic christians.

I know people who sing in Christian rock bands, walk to Czestochowa etc.. My own flat boasts an image of the Black Madonna and John Paul 2, due to Mrs. Kot.

None of these people are remotely bothered about, or aware of, this fuss.

The people who are bothered represent a minority. A vocal, visible minority but a minority nonetheless.

This story is quite amusing but things get darker when you have priests calling for gays to be burnt at the stake and things like that.

It is true that Christianity is an easy target, but the Bible does say 'turn the other cheek'. Being Christian involves living a Christian life. Going to church once a week and having a photo of JPII on your wall does not make you a Christian.

jannowak57 said...

When I said “There is also an intense desire for conformity, which comes from decades of totalitarian rule.” I did not mean it as a positive trait but rather something that developed during the period of 1939 t0 1989 when Poland changed from a land of diversity to one of the most homogeneous nations in Europe.

beatroot said “Certainly, anyone seen as "different" is here is singled out for some unwanted attention. poeple staring at the disabled, etc...”

I think that attitude has been around for a longer period of time, there was a time in the west when people sheltered from public view their disabled and mentally ill family members. They wanted to sweep disabled people into a closet presumably to avoid the social stigma.

heat seeker said “and narrow-mindedness”

There are aspects of village life that highlight this very well however there is no escaping that Poland was frozen in the past and did not evolve socially as say western Europe did over the period 1939 to 1989, consequently we are out of sync with western Europe.

roman said...” Hanging herself dressed as a slut on a cross bearing the name of the revered "virgin" should by no means be construed as an insult to Christians? Hello”

In a democracy she has the right to be a distasteful and vulgar slut and by not buying her music or attending her concert you have reacted appropriately.

Czary Kot said: “Going to church once a week and having a photo of JPII on your wall does not make you a Christian.”

Yes it does, in normal times; this is the extent of most “Polish Catholics” traditional faith. I remember getting dragged to church regularly and instructed on the social necessity of doing so but told not to get carried away with the “bull shit”.

heat_seeker said...

Jan, I agree with you that we are a bit out of sync but I'm not sure this is due exclusively to being under the soviet rule for 50 years. I think the problem runs deeper. Look at the political and social discourse that led to partitions - I think you will find there some troubling similarities.

Roman said: "Narrow-mindedness? I see that heat-seeker is at his usual cheery self with his casual sweeping general charactarization of the Polish people."
Not at all. You have either misinterpreted or misconstrued my comment (hope it's the former, not the latter..) I was referring to a small but extremely loud minority of ignorant fanatics. Unfortunately, the majority of Poles does seem to take the attitude of not wanting to get involved rather than coming out in open opposition to the 'mobocracy.' Please see this video and tell me if it really represents majority of Poles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jONraPOhP9I

Mark said...

JanNowak57 wrote:

"...Poland was frozen in the past and did not evolve socially as say western Europe did over the period 1939 to 1989, consequently we are out of sync with western Europe"

Western Europe, as it is now, doesn't necessarily represent the universal standard all others should aspire to. While there are many positive things contemporary Western European cultures continue to offer (I like their varied cuisines, small cars, folk music, and some movies, for example), in many other areas there are perceived setbacks. Certainly high cohabitation and divorce rates, plummeting birthrates, chronically high unemployment, widespread rejection of Christianity, embrace of sterile secularism and nihilism, are all questionable things. Also, the growing Western European brand of Islam raises many questions as to its spiritual future.

During the Cold War, to those trapped on the Soviet side of the Iron Curtain, Western Europe represented freedom, and a desired path to follow someday. Today, twenty years after the collapse of communism, it would be wise to emancipate one's mind from this desire.

roman said...

Jan,

In a democracy she has the right to be a distasteful and vulgar slut and by not buying her music or attending her concert you have reacted appropriately.

Also in a true Democracy, the group being insulted should be able to peacefully demonstrate and lobby the political process to ban same. They may not get anywhere but the process should not be restricted due to the size of the group offended.
Of course, I agree that burning people at the stake is currently to be avoided at all cost.

heat_seeker,

How do you know that the "silent" majority is not in full agreement with those so-called loud (religiously fervent not ignorant) fanatics? It sounds as if you have accepted this supposition as fact. Were polls taken or is this just a gut feeling? It may just as well be the case that there are a good number of rich decadent Poles who like to "get off" on slutty dressed women giving the finger to the Catholic church. This group may well be the minority for all we know.

heat_seeker said...

Roman, you are absolutely right: My "casual sweeping general charactarization (sic!) of the Polish people" as you put it, assumes that said Polish people are not all fanatical dimwits blaming all their shortcomings on "masonic television" and "stinking Jews" - or as you call it 'religiously fervent'.. I must say in a strange way I find it somewhat refreshing that you had courage to come out and say it out loud: "Majority of Poles are ignorant, fanatical and antisemitic and I am proud to be one of them.". My props to you Roman! You are truly a polish David Duke!

ge'ez said...

Gimme 2 TM 2,3 anyday. Or just about any Polish pop, rock, jazz, etc band for that matter.

roman said...

Heat_seeker,

I think that a basic course in psychology will illustrate what I believe is at play here with your last comment. It's called transferance. It goes like this. I point out unfounded sweeping general characterizations made by you and in return you acuse me of the very same error of logic you made and throwing in a couple of extras like ignorance and anti-semitism. I cannot conceive where the last two slurs came from since they are brand new to this thread. I guess you will have to search your mind and conscience (if one exists) for that most hateful and childish display of discourse.
Yes, I remember you now. A very similar course of discussion and resulting "childish tantrum" occured before on this site. I guess a zebra cannot change its stripes.

Czarny Kot said...

@ge'ez:

Aye, i've got well into my Polish music the last few years.

A lot of great bands and songs but for me T-Love and Lady Pank stand out above all others..

ge'ez said...

CZ K: Over Perfect, even?

Also, check out Jelonek, especially his "A Funeral of a Provincial Vampire" video:

http://www.jelonek.art.pl/en/

There are a few other of his videos on youtube, too.

heat_seeker said...

Roman, let me go back to what I said before: Please see this video and tell me if it really represents majority of Poles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jONraPOhP9I

heat_seeker said...

BTW Roman, I don't think you took 'that basic course in psychology' - you seem to be confusing 'transferance' (or rather 'transference', as it's properly spelled...) with 'projection'.

roman said...

heat_seeker,

Projection is in fact what I meant to say. Thank you for that more precise description. I readily admit that it has been a while since I took that psyche course.
Look, all I ask is to be more careful when choosing descriptions which cast an entire population in a negative light.
Your statement: The mindset that Czarny Kot is referring to has been present in Polish society for centuries.
More acurately: The mindset that Czarny Kot is referring to has been present in some members of Polish society for centuries.

Czarny Kot said...

"More acurately: The mindset that Czarny Kot is referring to has been present in some members of Polish society for centuries."

Of course. It is worth remembering that while Poland is the home of anti-Madonna demonstrations, it is also home of the wildly successful Doda who quite frankly makes Madonna look like a nun.

@Ge'ez:

I've heard of Perfect but never heard them, if you not what I mean. As well as T-Love and Lady Pank I like a bit of Wilki, Kukiz, Kult and a few Myslovitz songs.

ge'ez said...

More Doda photos!

No more mention of Madonna.

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said...

@jannowak57
"When I said “There is also an intense desire for conformity, which comes from decades of totalitarian rule.” I did not mean it as a positive trait but rather something that developed during the period of 1939 t0 1989 when Poland changed from a land of diversity to one of the most homogeneous nations in Europe."

So you blame Communism for polish bigots, right? Or maybe you are trying to say that popularity of centrist ideology in Poland is produced by decades of "totalitarian rule". Well, i have heard that bigots, centrism and conformity was pretty common here also before war.

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said...

Speaking about homogeneous. Who knows perhaps that was one of the greatest achievements of polish communism?

Dont get me wrong, this statement has nothing to do with nationalism
Quite on the contrary. Jan as far as i have noticed likes to oversimplify almost everything, but _HELLO_ this is Poland - it`s just not so simple.

In the name of insular anticommunism some people are ready to give western Poland back to Germans ;) Others like to denounce everything what had happened during Communism as a black hole or as a waste of time, believing that all of our problems started in 1945 and derrives from communists past.

I know that especialy to those mentaly lazy such simple interpretation can be quite appealing, but i`m affraid that Poland was a "land of problems" long before Communism had emerged.

You see, pre-war Poland was a ticking bomb, marked by ethnic conflicts and ready to blow.

Polish-Ukrainian conflict is a case in point. Of course not only Poland bears responsibility for those events, but its clear that escalation of anti-polish feeling among Ukrainians was simply an effect of arrogant policy that polish authoritarian government was implementing during pre-war years. Anti-polish feeling among western Ukrainians were running high and found an outlet in bloodshed that struck The Eastern marches during WWII. Arguably, communists cleaned that mess and did good job. I`m affraid that "action Wisla" was inevitable. It saved a great many number of lives that otherwise if fights had been continued, would have been definitely lost.

Few years ago i met a Pole with an Ukrainian background who told me that "action Wisla" had saved his parents lives. They were both Ukrainians. Torn apart between fighting sides, constantly forced by UPA (Ukrainian resistence fighters) to provide them support. They couldnt refused. If they had done this they would have been executed by UPA. But simultaneously to this, Poles from neighboring villages regarded them as followers of UPA and planned to...execute them as well. Vicious circle, i say.

Irony is that most of polish Ukrainians bear symphaty for the polish communists past, probably because of communist gave them after the resettlement of the ukrainian population into western and northern Poland had been accomplished, strong support and provide housing and social privileges as well as creating possibilities to carry out a wide range of cultural activities. Also policy towards educational emancipation of Ukrainians was very well aimed. First time in history of Poland children of polish ukrainian farmers had an opportunity to get to universities and became lawyers, architects, doctors on a such large scale. Well its sure that thanks to communists they started to participate in polish society. Tensions between Poles and Ukrainians actually disappeared. And that`s also a heritage of communism.

Situation with Jews and Germans is a bit different. But i will explain it next time, because its quite interesting and arguably, true about those realations differ from conventional wisdom, but I`m affraid don`t have time at the present anymore.

I just only want to add that one should remember that among polish minorities of Gypsies, Belarusians and Lithuanians there is still a fairly positive picture of Communism. No wonder, since Belarusians had been victimized between 1945-47 by some members of polish anticommunist resistence, most notably by group of commandment Romuald "Bury" Rajs*. Like it or not, but it where polish communists who in fact saved them.

What is interesting btw, policy that communists implemented towards polish Gypsies is acclaimed as one of the most succesfull in Europe. Only in Poland Gypsies have so many possibilities to carry out that wide range of cultural activities. And this is also a heritage of communism.

Bigotry and backwardness existed here for ages and cant be atributed to the polish Communism all the more that polish democracy is lasting long enough to take some responsibility for it`s sins.

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said...

Can someone fix it. Please ;)

You know, after decades of totalitarian rule i still havent grasp sufficiently the secret that one should wait a while after clicking the button _Publish_ and not making a fool of oneself by clicking it once more when its clear that those stupid machines needs some time to work properly.

ge'ez said...

CZ K:

Perfect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TG6__iNrhw&feature=related

There are many of their songs I prefer over the one above but I couldn't find them on youtube...

jannowak57 said...

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said... “Speaking about homogeneous. Who knows perhaps that was one of the greatest achievements of polish communism?”

The PRL can’t even take credit for that as it was a puppet government that was under complete control from Moscow during that period, and Stalin had personally made the decisions that lead to the ethnic cleansing that resulted in making Poland a Homogeneous state. Which I have to admit I found it a peculiar decision since the consequence of that would be to make Poland more difficult to control. It was Stalin who said “you have a better chance of putting a saddle on a cow than ever making Poland a communist country”. It would have been smarter for Stalin to leave the old eastern border alone and added the western portion leaving its German population in place. The consequence of large ethnic groups would facilitate a divide and rule situation, which would have favoured Moscow for decades.

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said... “In the name of insular anticommunism some people are ready to give western Poland back to Germans”

Well we should politely refer to such people as traitors and lavish upon them our finest rope and our numerous lampposts.

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said... “You see, pre-war Poland was a ticking bomb, marked by ethnic conflicts and ready to blow.”

It is fair to say the prewar period was not a model for dealing intelligently with minority groups however I think your analysis is a bit over the top on drama. Most communities lived in their own solitudes without any drama.

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski said... “Others like to denounce everything what had happened during Communism as a black hole or as a waste of time, believing that all of our problems started in 1945 and derrives from communists past. “

The PRL was no friend of minority groups in Poland and it was never shy about promoting “Bigotry and backwardness” as official policy. Complete assimilation was always the desired policy. Remember General Moczar and his supporters, when Moczar declared “the Zionist Infiltration” and went on to drive a campaign of anti-Semitism which caused a mass emigration of Polish Jews in 1968, many of whom were distinguished doctors, professors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

Was this your idea of a progressive policy for handling minority populations?

Bogusław Siemiątkowski said...

@JanNowak57
"Was this your idea of a progressive policy for handling minority populations?"

Och may, but i have written very clear that i will explain communists relations with Jews later.

We have in Poland nice world which perfectly describs people like you - Kołtun - which means prig or philistine. It`s also tediuos when people like you take something out of context and are ommiting those facts that dont suit their view. But first comes first.

@JanNaowak 57
"The PRL can’t even take credit for that as it was a puppet government that was under complete control from Moscow during that period, and Stalin had personally made the decisions that lead to the ethnic cleansing that resulted in making Poland a Homogeneous state."

Stalin died in 1953. Ethnic cleansing started in Poland in 1939 with Holocaust, ecsalation of polish-ukrainian (Wołyń) fights and so on. Post-war situation was marked by pre-war and war events.

Since polish borders had completely changed after the war in that case also population of a new polish state differ a lot from pre-war times.

Polish policy towards Ukrainian was driven by Warsaw being inevitable if we take into consideration what was happening during the war. It was clear that this ethnic conflict was too profound to solve in peaceful way. Polish policy towards Germans was also inevitable and had nothing to do with ethnic cleansing being driven by Warsaw as well.

In 1945 people had a little bit different perspective. They were marked by 6 years of war and/or occupation, remembering pre-war oppresive atmosphere. You can play a fool in which you are fairly good - I admitt, but the fact is that people were sick and tired with those neverending conflicts.

Along with changing borders inside Poland happened to find thousands of new habitants, overwhelmly of German origin, and with very nagative feeling towards Poles. It`s no use to pretend that with such memory of the past Poles had every single right to be worried about what might have possible happened if those Germans would have rebelled and triggered off, lets say - an uprising. Czechs had similar feeling. It`s good to remember that those Germans were not so innocent. Wehrwolf - post-nazi resistance group was quite active and Adenauer - german post-nazi Chanceller liked to repeat with a smile on his face that in 40 years Silesia will gonna return to Germany. What that supposed to mean? In post-war realities it was clear message that German government learned nothing and those anti-polish provokation that were pervasive in post-war years were inspired by Bonn.

The new polish government can be credited with solving that problem. They recieved fairly big support not only from "normal" Poles but also from members of Home Army who cooperate with communists against UPA and Wehrwolf.

Poland is homogenous because of many reasons. And if the price of this was that we avoid ethnic conflicts that were part of polish realities for ages, so i think it was worth to pay.

@JanNowak57
"Which I have to admit I found it a peculiar decision since the consequence of that would be to make Poland more difficult to control.(...)
(...)The consequence of large ethnic groups would facilitate a divide and rule situation, which would have favoured Moscow for decades.(...)"

Well perhaps communists wanted to clean that ethnic mess after all, but you are just to blind to admit it, so you are looking for some silly explanations beyond reality.

c.d.n.

Bogusław Siemiątkowski said...

@JanNowak57
"Well we should politely refer to such people as traitors and lavish upon them our finest rope and our numerous lampposts."

Didnt you notice that i have added an emotikon in the end of my statement? No wonder that you are confusing so many facts.

@JanNowak57
"I think your analysis is a bit over the top on drama. Most communities lived in their own solitudes without any drama."

Sorry but antisemitism was galvanizing in pre-war Poland. The same goes to polish-ukrainian and polish-german negative relations. The latter were quite weak but after 6 years of occupation situation in 1945 were more and more difficult.

I know that supporters of pre-war Poland like to whitewash this period also by exagerating negative aspect of communist times but it`s to no purpose. Most people here are aware what was happening before war. Of course descendants of apparatchiks of pre-war authoritarian government will still try to dilute responsibility, but they should ask themselves why so many polish ukrainians praise communist past more than pre-communist and post-communist.

c.d.n.

heat_seeker said...

Boguslaw - thanks for chiming in. In our discussions here we seem to totally dismiss the fact that pre-war Poland was anything but democratic. Democracy in Poland died with the May 1926 Coup d'État. The Sanacja was a military junta with a strong nationalistic (if not fascist...) tendencies. The Polish military was not exactly sympathetic to the plight of the minorities. The political opponents were promptly silenced and imprisoned. Sanacja can be hardly blamed on outside forces - it was driven by the same sentiments of narrowly-defined nationalism that we saw at the time of partitions and that we are seeing now we are seeing now among the followers of Rydzyk. BTW: I'm glad somebody finally mentioned the Polish-Ukrainian relations without fixating on the Polish-Jewish discourse as seemingly 'only' minority issue Poland has ever had to deal with judging from the previous discussions.

Bogusław Siemiątkowski said...

@JanNowak57
"The PRL was no friend of minority groups in Poland and it was never shy about promoting “Bigotry and backwardness” as official policy.

Ask polish Belariusians, Gypsies, Lithuanians and Ukrainians what they think about it. The same goes even to the Silesians who like to criticise PRL but really despise pre-war Poland.

Today among Lithuanian minority the most popular polish political party is SLD - postcommunists. In latest parlamentary elections postcommunists gained 92% support in Sejny, wich is capital of polish lithuanians. It`s not an accident. The same goes to polish Belarusian who are giving their support to the post-communist as well.

Go and talk to them and you will find out why. They just despise pre-war Poland contrary to the PRL.

Let alone Gypsies who like i wrote before have plenty possibilities to celebrate their culture which is heritage of communists policy.

@JanNowak57
"Complete assimilation was always the desired policy."

Prove it.

@JanNowak57
"Remember General Moczar and his supporters, when Moczar declared “the Zionist Infiltration” and went on to drive a campaign of anti-Semitism which caused a mass emigration of Polish Jews in 1968, many of whom were distinguished doctors, professors, lawyers, engineers, etc."

Also many of whom were members of Communist Party including stalinists with their families.

It is very easy to manipulate by taking something out of context and exagerating it. You have of course ommited the geopolitical realities.

It was time of Cold War. In 1967 Middle-East faced another conflict - the Six-day war. Soviets supported Arab states. Since Poland belonged to the Eastern Bloc, in that case we automatically became an ally of Arab states.
Well, theoritically Izrael became our enemy. The war ended not only with huge defeat of Arab states but also with compromitation of Soviets. What had all of this to do with emigration of Jews?
Well during those times more and more members of civic administration and military, those of course whith jewish background, was calling for changing side and start to support Izrael. Many people who have nothing to do with communists past, like Andrzej Koraszewski former director of polish edition of BBC claim that jewish emigration was inspired by Moscow which was affraid of losing influences in Poland. Moczar was just a tool. Some group of communists appartchiks took advantage of the situation and got rid of other communists apparatchiks: those with stalinists past and those so called revizionists.

There is also a theory (Adam Schaff would reffer to it) that Soviets needed a new spy ring in the west after the old one had been exposed.

It`s clear that 1968 events were disgusting, but it was not part of a some communist policy all the more that it were not commies who were and still are screaming "Żydokomuna" wich can be translated into commie-Jews or Jewish Communism which is a pejorative term denouncing all commies in Poland as a Jews and all Jews in Poland as a Commies.

jannowak57 said...

Well Boguslaw Siemiatkowski (you don’t mind if I call you BS to save on typing) you are a refreshing development usually there are only the run of the mill leftists and muddled liberals but now we have a real supporter of the PRL. Tell me BS do you grind your teeth looking at a resurrected Poland, a Poland you and your friends failed to exterminate through incompetence and failure, did you bark on command for your Russian masters for that extra slice of cheap bread. Of course the Russians didn’t give your forty pieces of silver because they knew your weren’t worth it. Does it make you tear at your hair to see all the vestiges of your PRL tossed into histories trash bin?

Lets review your nonsense and distortions of history (the official PRL reality):
BS said “We have in Poland nice world which perfectly describs people like you - Kołtun - which means prig or philistine”
If you have no argument and run out of distortions than I expect you have been left with the option of name-calling. Perhaps your education our lack of has you believing that’s a substitute for rational; discourse. Being a fan of the PRL does indicate a state of self-delusion.
Oh cheer up heat_seeker is prepared to lick your ass, it provides him with emotional reassurance as he hides in the closet with his hand on his dick singing the Internationale.
BS said “Polish policy towards Ukrainian was driven by Warsaw”
No policies were driven by Warsaw, all policy direction came from Moscow and were implement by a cadre of Soviet citizens in Polish uniform.

BS said “polish Belariusians, Gypsies, Lithuanians and Ukrainians …………….really despise pre-war Poland.”
If indeed the Poles were so bad than why did nearly all of the ethnic minorities choose to stay in Poland versus leaving for a better life amongst their own just across the border. After all Ukrainians were free to leave and yet virtually no one did but rather a steady stream of Ukraine refugees kept coming to Poland from the USSR. Sure looks like people are voting with their feet. Oops did I say voting, you guys weren’t big on that concept in the PRL.

BS said “They recieved fairly big support not only from "normal" Poles but also from members of Home Army who cooperate with communists against UPA and Wehrwolf.”

Most historians have concluded that the Werewolf organization formed by the Nazis to carry on resistance to the allies materialized into nothing and virtually didn’t exist outside of the imagination. However, historians characterises German post-surrender resistance as "minor".

Your comment on the Home Army or AK is at variance with reality, the organization officially disbanded on January 19, 1945 to avoid armed conflict with the Soviets and civil war. However, many units decided to continue their struggle against communist authorities. The Soviet Union and the Polish Communist Government it controlled viewed the underground, still loyal to the Polish government in exile, as a force, which had to be removed before they could gain complete control over Poland. Future General Secretary of PZPR, Władysław Gomułka, is quoted as saying: "Soldiers of AK are a hostile element which must be removed without mercy". Another prominent Polish communist, Roman Zambrowski, said that AK had to be "exterminated". Is this your idea of a framework for possible cooperation?

Boguslaw Siemiatkowski you can’t have it both ways, on one hand you tell me that the PRL was seen as the best hope of our ethnic minorities and in the same breathe applaud the PRL for creating a Poland free of ethnic minorities. This is incompatible, please pick one or the other if for no other reason than for the sake of rational debate.

jannowak57 said...

The PRL and its leadership were responsible for persecution of Jews during the 1960’s and 1970’s.
The wave of anti-Semitism instigated by the communist authorities to divert public attention resulted in the final exodus of Jews from Poland. Before the campaign, the country had 40,000 Jews; within a few years, fewer than 5,000 remained. The episode was especially traumatic as those forced to leave saw themselves as Poles.
Faced by an underground opposition movement, the government ordered that anti-Israel and anti-Zionist propaganda be increased, and on June 19, 1967 PM gave a speech calling the Jews a "fifth column," suggesting they should be transferred to Israel. The Polish Communist party began a process to purge "Zionist" (Jewish) elements, primarily aimed at liberal opposition movement. Many Poles (irrespective of actual faith) were accused of being Zionists and expelled from the party.

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Bogusław Siemiątkowski said...

JN57@
"Tell me BS do you grind your teeth looking at a resurrected Poland, a Poland you and your friends failed to exterminate through incompetence and failure, did you bark on command for your Russian masters for that extra slice of cheap bread. Of course the Russians didn’t give your forty pieces of silver because they knew your weren’t worth it. Does it make you tear at your hair to see all the vestiges of your PRL tossed into histories trash bin?"

haha Hey Janek "mordo ty moja" i am 27 years old Pole who contrary to many present polsih market liberals had nothing to do with Communist Party. As far as i know symphaty for communist past is gradually raising in Poland also among young people (44% Poles have positive view about PRL and 43% think otherwise) so i think your bodies are doing great job to save communists ideas alive, all the more that present Poland is famous for having the highest rate of children poverty in UE (27%) something that had not existed in PRL. So i see that succes of our capitalism had been build at the expense of children. Smooth! They will not protest.

JN57@
"If you have no argument and run out of distortions than I expect you have been left with the option of name-calling. Perhaps your education our lack of has you believing that’s a substitute for rational; discourse. Being a fan of the PRL does indicate a state of self-delusion."

Look who`s talking :)

JN57@
"Oh cheer up heat_seeker is prepared to lick your ass, it provides him with emotional reassurance as he hides in the closet with his hand on his dick singing the Internationale."

And that is why no one cry for you in 1945. BTW those allusion to sexual activities say more about you than about me or heat_seeker.

JN57@
"No policies were driven by Warsaw, all policy direction came from Moscow and were implement by a cadre of Soviet citizens in Polish uniform."

Blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah, blah

Nonsense. You are unable to admit that PRL was a polish state, so in the name of this shallow anticommunism you will constantly repeat those hackneyed banals about Soviet citizens, who were just minority. Most memebers of polish post-war authorities were Poles or polish Jews just like polish communist who despite being subjected to Moscow still had quite big independence in many areas. Action "Wisla" was made in Poland.

JN57@
"If indeed the Poles were so bad than why did nearly all of the ethnic minorities choose to stay in Poland versus leaving for a better life amongst their own just across the border. After all Ukrainians were free to leave and yet virtually no one did but rather a steady stream of Ukraine refugees kept coming to Poland from the USSR. Sure looks like people are voting with their feet."

No, this is just to easy.

You are asking me why so many Ukrainians prefer polish communist stae to Soviet state?

Well, hmm...Perhaps because there was no sanacja any more. No more polish pre-war government and no more pre-war anti-minorieties policies.

You see my dear philistine, it was not Poland in itself that was the problem - which i have pointed very clear. The problem was laying in the pre-war polish policy and since the government in post-war Poland had changed, and since whole Poland including territory had changed as well, then its no wonder that so many Ukrainians had felt they can trust polish communists now, which i`m affraid it only prove my point.

To conclude, the fact that minorities stayed in Poland after the war doesnt prove that they enyoyed living in pre-war Poland because Communist Poland and pre-communist Poland were two completely different states.

Oops did I say voting, you guys weren’t big on that concept in the PRL.

Really? Its funny because it were not communist who started to false elections. Poland was undemocratic state (well, acording to british historiography we were quasi-fascist state before the war) long before communist captured power, so Jan "mordo ty moja" oops you did it again, you have shot an own goal.

Bogusław Siemiątkowski said...

JN57
Wehrwolf

Well in the name of insular anticommunism some will deny almost everything only to not admit that communist did something properly. I have been told by some young right-wing looney that there is no such thing as a polish nation because Poles had been created by commies :D

Speaking about Wehrwolf, you are reffering to some enigmatic historicians but even guys from IPN (Institute of National Rememberence) wrote about Wehrwolff resistance, and i think its hard to accuse them of symphaty for PRL.

Wehrwolf remain minor only thanks to Polish response which was quite effective. Thanks to experience of Home Army soldiers Wehrwolf was destroyed very easy. Other reason of this weaknes was our policy of resettlementation of German population which destroyed support base for Wehrwolf.

JN57
"Your comment on the Home Army or AK is at variance with reality, the organization officially disbanded on January 19, 1945 to avoid armed conflict with the Soviets and civil war. However, many units decided to continue their struggle against communist authorities. The Soviet Union and the Polish Communist Government it controlled viewed the underground, still loyal to the Polish government in exile, as a force, which had to be removed before they could gain complete control over Poland. Future General Secretary of PZPR, Władysław Gomułka, is quoted as saying: "Soldiers of AK are a hostile element which must be removed without mercy". Another prominent Polish communist, Roman Zambrowski, said that AK had to be "exterminated". Is this your idea of a framework for possible cooperation?"

Well, there is only one thing more tedious than communists propaganda - an anticommust propaganda ;)

Well its very easy to manipulate taking something out of context, but neither communists approach was so negative towards guys from AK nor Home Army (AK) soldiers were so anticommunist. Central Poland is a case in point were most of them joined to polish peoples army (LWP) or polish milicia (MO). Most members of AK remain neutral and refuse fighting against communists, many support them also in actions against polish fascists (NSZ) who dreamt about "Greater Poland". In fact anticommunist resistance was confined only to few regions. Malopolskie, Podlasie and Northern Mazovia were anticomunist strongholds but Central Poland and so called Ziemie Odzyskane were on commies side.

Story about polish soldiers who were coming back from UK or France is also quite interesting and differ a lot from anticommunist propaganda. Most of those people start to cooperate with the new polish government (Czeslaw Bobrowski or Stanislaw Skalski are among the most famous examples but there is much more), but i have no time to explain all of this now. I can only say that many of them came to Poland to fight with commies but after familiarization with realities they started to reconsider they previous view.

And one more thing. Some paranoics dreamt in 1945 about III World War. Those idiots derrived from right-wing of the Home Army. As we all know Home Army was a big organisation which was encompassing many political trends. On the eve of liberalisation by Red Army conflict between Left and Right trrigered off also inside of HA. This is one thing which many insular anticommunist dont want to admit.

Poland is quite complicated place. Your point of view is good for Hollywood movies (with all due respect) but Poland is more like european cinema, its hard to explain, you have to just watch it yourself.

Bogusław Siemiątkowski said...

JN57@
"Boguslaw Siemiatkowski you can’t have it both ways, on one hand you tell me that the PRL was seen as the best hope of our ethnic minorities and in the same breathe applaud the PRL for creating a Poland free of ethnic minorities."

Poland is not free from minorities but its free from ethnic conflictc. And that was my point. I also pointed out why there is less minorities in present Poland. Those who stayed in Poland recieved fairly good support.

You have to admit it ;)

heat_seeker said...

JN57 said "Oh cheer up heat_seeker is prepared to lick your ass, it provides him with emotional reassurance as he hides in the closet with his hand on his dick singing the Internationale."
That's really classy. I reckon I'm better off jerking off to a catchy tune, than you with your head so deep up in your ass that it's hard to tell whether you're farting or talking. But enough with the colorful imagery :) Jan, when you hide your contempt and pretend to be somewhat objective you can do a decent job as a skillful propagandist. But that is all you are unless you are willing to expand your horizons beyond that hyper-nationalistic, selective and cold war inspired reading of the world history. Like Dan Quale once said: What a waste it is to lose one's mind. "Arise, wretched of the earth, Arise, convicts of hunger
Reason thunders in its crater
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us wipe the slate clean, Masses, slaves, arise, arise.." oooh.. this feels real good.. Jan Nowak you fiend you... ;)

ge'ez said...

But with whom would Madonna agree?

jannowak57 said...

Me of course because the “Material Girl” is all about western capitalism!

heat_seeker said...

.. and she's a queen of BS too, e.g. immaculate conception bit.. ;) It's a match made in heaven! (no pun intended..)

ge'ez said...

Yea, I heard that her stage show in Poland will feature onstage sex with Allan Greenspan.

steffsings said...

Madonna? Madonna who? I haven't seen nor heard from her in YEARS... Hope she doing well.
www.steffsings.wordpress.com

(Steff says a little prayer for the families that lost loved ones today with roof caving/Madonna Concert Stage accident)

rula said...

I'm sorry Madonna. Shit happens. Bless you all :)

Anonymous said...

The charity 'Raising Malawi' (PR firm) founded by Madonna AND TWO OTHERS in '06' held fund raisers for over two years before finally getting registered as a non-profit. In other words, Madonna and the others were free to squander that funding any way they saw fit for those first two years. In fact, they still havn't accounted for the 3.7 million raised from a single event in the fall of '07' (The grand opening of a Gucci flagship store in Manhattan.). She also pleaded with her fans worldwide for donations along the way. In the meantime, she toured the world to promote her latest CD and raked in another $280,000,000 gross in just over 12 months. To date, the basic financial info for 'Raising Malawi' still hasn't been posted on the website or anywhere else. The 'progress' page only tells of the collective works by over 20 seperate charities. Each of which have their own sources of funding and may have recieved some sort of promotion or support from 'Raising Malawi' in order to be considered 'partners'. But no indication is made how much of their funding came from 'Raising Malawi' or how much of their progress if any could be directly attributed to 'Raising Malawi'. The fans/donors have no clue how many millions of dollars were raised in that first two years, no clue how much Madonna herself chipped in, and no clue how the money was spent before they finally registered as a non-profit. No clue what fraction of funding or works listed on that 'progress' page could be directly attributed to 'Raising Malawi'. Nothing to go on but the vague and misleading word of Madonna. For example: She states in her latest promotional video that she will match any contributions made to her charity (PR firm) "dollar for dollar". However, there is a disclaimer posted on the website for 'Raising Malawi' that Madonna's total contribution will not exceed $100,000. Thats not per donation. Thats a maximum of $100,000 TOTAL. Less than a single days pay for Madonna. Also much less then she will surely rake in by promoting her own CDs, DVDs, and 'for profit' merchandise through this massive worldwide publicity stunt. So I called the office of 'Raising Malawi' in an attempt to verify some sort of efficient financial operation (310) 867-2881 or (888) 72-DONOR). These details are ALWAYS made available by legitimate charities. But not in this case. I got nothing but recorded messages and hangups. So I did some research on my own. 'Raising Malawi' still hasn't been given any kind of rating by ANY independent charity watchdog like Charitywatch.org. The vast overwhelming majority of 'celebrity' foundations never are. In general, they are inneficient and riddled with corruption. Like the promotion of CDs, world tours, commercial websites, entire lines of jewelry (not just the single piece from which proceeds are donated), and high end retail flagship stores. Its far less expensive to promote your image and product with a contribution to your own charity (PR firm) than it is to buy commercial airtime worldwide. This is why its become such a trend. Celebrity foundations are also notorious for squandering much of their funding on private jet rides and super high end accomodations for their managers, PR crews, and celebrity figure heads. Its legal even for a nonprofit but not noble or efficient by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, non-profits are not actually required by law to be efficient. This is why the independent rating is so important. In general, 'celebrity' foundations never even get one. They are a twisted inefficient mutant of charity, self-promotion, exotic travel, and PR crap. Still, they compete for funding with more efficient legitimate charities. The celebrity figure heads often disregard the primary donors, co-founders, and managers, take personal credit for any collective work done, and seek maximum publicity shortly before or after the release of their own commercial projects. Its a sham. So if its not rated, then don't support it. Instead, support a top rated charity like any of those given high ratings at Charitywatch.org.

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Anonymous said...

Its all a sham. Nothing but tax deductible PR crap. Make the people love you. Take their money. Convince them that you're making the world a better place. Take more of their money. Be nothing but a greedy sell-out hypocrite pig with a fake commercial personality and a fake cause to pose for. Concentrate even more of the world's wealth and resources and lead the ignorant masses to believe that you're doing the opposite. I can't stop them and I can't punish them but I can tell you that their bogus promises to make the world a better place will not be kept. Any 'humanitarian' progress made in one area will always be lost in another with a net loss for the majority. There will be more poverty. More starvation. More conflict. Meanwhile the rich will keep getting richer and richer and richer. They will always dumb us down and divert our attention from one area to another. Just like they have been for at least 25 years. Ethipoia (still bad), Darfur (even worse), Malawi (still bad). As they concentrate more and more of the world's wealth and resources, they will cause more inflation, more poverty, more starvation, and more conflict on a global scale. In order to divert our attention, they will adopt another cause to pose for. and another. and another. and another. Each time, putting their fake humanitarian stamp on it and jet-setting the world in the name of 'humanity'. Actually charging their private jet rides and 5 star hotel accomodations to their own bogus 'foundations'. Pleading with us to buy more of their products and support more of their 'good will'. Taking more of our money and throwing a few crumbs back to the poor along the way. With another photo-op and worldwide publicity for each and every crumb. Like I said, its all a sham. Nothing but a giant marketing gimmick and a cheap excuse to keep getting richer and richer and richer. These people are actually causing the same problems they pretend to care about. It is the greatest scam of all time. I will not forgive them for it. I will expose as many as possible for the hypocrite pigs that they are. Thats my cause. Its the ugly truth. Someone has to tell it.

I challenge the Raising Malawi (Raising Madonna) Foundation to get their act together, focus more on Malawi, less on Madonna, open their books, give their donors some sort of itemized progress/efficiency report, and finally earn a decent rating from any independent charity watchdog like CharityWatch.org

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