Wednesday, January 28, 2009

The Real Football Factories International


Just as an appendix to the previous post, if you want to watch a really compulsive documentary on Polish football hooliganism then I have to recommended The Real Football Factories International.

It’s a British made documentary inspired by the hit series Real Football Factories, which was about UK soccer hooligans and what the government did about it at the end of the 1980s.

The Real Football Factories International looks at football ultras, or “firms” as we call then in Britain, in many different countries, such as Brazil, Russia and many more. But the best episode is the one about Poland, made a couple of winters ago at the height of a resurgence of football related violence here. People were dieing.

It captures some of the most amazing footage of football violence - and the reasons why these guys do this stuff - I have ever seen. The central section of the film, about the rivalry between the teams from Krakow, Wisla and Cracovia, is breathtaking. The documentary has since become a cult success in the many countries that it has been broadcast.

At this point I should say that I had a hand in making the film. The producers got in touch with me via this blog, actually, and asked for help in getting contacts, etc. I also met the team in the Holiday Inn in Warsaw just after they spent an amazing couple of days with the hooligans of Krakow. They asked me lots of questions about how the UK got rid of its hooligan problem and I answered them as best I could.

They also interviewed many other people for the final “analysis” section of the film. The chairman of Legia was one. So was Simon Mol, who was then prominent in the “Kick racism out of football” campaign in Poland.

Unfortunately, just weeks before the broadcast premier of the documentary, Simon Mol was arrested for his now infamous behaviour. I then got an anxious email from the producers of the film: is Mol a kosher person as a “talking head”? I had to tell then that, in the present circumstances, he was not.

So, for that reason, or maybe for reasons of art - the footage of the Wisla/Cracovia game is so amazing and central to the film that they needed little extra - they cut Mol from the programme and many other ‘talking heads’. Except one.

See the rather entertaining documentary here (it‘s on youtube so split into five different parts). And I promise you that, although the British presenter is an actor, everything you see is how it happened. No set ups.

277 comments:

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ge'ez said...

Blah. It did more to encourage than dissuade this kind of mentality is evidenced by the comments to the various parts of the video on youtube. So there's no racist graffiti? Anti-Semitic displays? Not even a hint of it in the documentary. Just "Fight Club" buzz to emulate so as to be hip. Is this the "amazing vibe" you were referencing, BR?

It also made it look like these firms morphed out of the Solidarity movement as if Solidarnosc was some esentially some kind of street fighting phenonemon. The denial of their having essentially replicated the ethos of British firms of the 80s is not very convincing. More organized? More pyro? Knives? Fights in the woods? That's very inspiring, absolutely impressive. Is Mad Max what the Polish working class genuinely aspires to? I think not.

Five thumbs down.

ge'ez said...

BR, I should say I found everything you said, which wasn't much, to be realistic. It will prolly just take another generation to sort things out.

Worse thing was the "compulsive" (the way you described the film) main actor who reminded me of Agnieszka (Krystyna Janda) in Man of Marble.

YouNotSneaky! said...

Just watched the first clip and gotta agree with ge'ez. "Football hooligans as foot soldiers of Solidarity" WTF??? This is sensationalism at its worst and that narrator dude is obnoxious.

YouNotSneaky! said...

Eh. The "zamiast lisci beda wisiec komunisci" was a common schoolboy song, not really related to football. I mean, yeah, sure, football fans were against the government at the time because pretty much EVERYONE was against the government. But to the extent politics of the 80's and football had anything to do with each other it mostly had to do with some folks refusing to support or attend the games of military based teams such as WKS Slask (I remember cuz I had a bit of a heartbreak about it)

ge'ez said...

And Wisla Krakow was/is police-based...

One of the other things that struck me after watching the doc that I knew a bit about but wasn't really considered to any extent in the Fight Club flow was the demographic of the fans in the stands. Obviously not family or woman friendly at the WK stadium. 20, 30, 40 year olds. Similar to American football in that respect but there are women intersperced in the stands, prolly about 1/4 and there are also segregated and protected family sections in the end zones where in your parts the firms take control. What's the working class/lumpenproletarian/middle class/rich folks split? Not at all addressed in the documentary.

beatroot said...

Obviously not family or woman friendly at the WK stadium.

That's the problem, really, isn't it? The cameraman told me he had never seen anything like it in his life! And it is amazing. But what about normal people who just want to go and watch the game? There maybe should be more family stands...etc.

ge'ez said...

And to the extent that the problem is money, it's exacerbated coz no one except the total fanatics will buy a scarf, jersey etc because they are war booty be stolen (more than a few punched out faces and bonked heads I'm sure) and be burned in the stands to taunt opponents. Imagine wearing a Krakow Wisla scarf with a Cracovia jersey just to see what happens. Maybe you can get Beakerkin to help you out with some investigative reporting.

ge'ez said...

What are the chances that a Legia fan will or can buy a jersey with one of the Black player's names on the back?

beatroot said...

Geez - don't know...but it's far more important that the black player is on the other side for them to get excited about this. Same happened in UK...first all black players got the bananas...then opposite teams...then the bananas stop altogether.

Game on!
Mr Sneaky, Not

Eh. The "zamiast lisci beda wisiec komunisci" was a common schoolboy song, not really related to football. I mean, yeah, sure, football fans were against the government…

You know, you may think that football hooligans glorifying themselves as some sort of political/social service is silly - I may think that. The point is, they don’t - they believe it.

One of things the producer of that film told me was that the Wisla and Cracovia ultras think that they are some kind of knights defending the purity of football! Stopp sniggering! They say: “hey, look at the PZPN - corrupt as shit and everyone knows it. And they tell us we are ruining the game of football!”

Slightly spurious logic but there is a point there somewhere.

So, it’s important for film makers to not just hear all the time about what the football authorities think etc. To understand hooliganism you have to understand hooligans. And I think Football factory trype films to give an insight into the mindset without easy moralising that is the normal documentary film makers stock in trade.

But hooligans are not the root of all evil in POlish soccer - that comes from no investment and corruption within PZPN and the clubs.

ge'ez said...

But still, we didn't hear all that much directly ini the documentary from the guys in the clubs aside from the one Cracovia guy. Why don't you get some folks together and do it right, BR? Seriously.

And just a maybe since I don't know enough details... Whereas the Cracovia clubs might see themselves as descendants of Solidarity in some sense, that's kinda hard for the Wisla Krakow guys since they are seen as the police dogs who cracked down on Solidarity. no? And that's a big part of the continuing war involved.

beatroot said...

Why don't you get some folks together and do it right, BR? Seriously.

Of course, it's a great idea. The logistics, though are difficult and scary.

Alos, the hooligan thing was a big issue two, three years ago. Before that there was another break of five, six years when nothing that much happened and then it got out of control again. And that's been a patern over time.

Now we are in a relative calm period - apart from the Legia in Vilnius thing. So it's not such a hot news item at the moment.

But yeah, a really good documentary from the hooligans point of view would be an addition to the subject.

Thanks...you got me thinking...

YouNotSneaky! said...

Well, two other criticisms of the docu now that I've watched almost the whole thing.
1. Tracing back the Cracovia-Wisla rivalry to communist times is a bit silly. It's true that Wisla was/is a police club and that because of that some people refused to support it. But honestly, NO ONE supported Cracovia in the 70's and 80's. Well, maybe like two people. They sucked really bad. They were generally in Third Division and those two guys that supported them back then would get really excited if they managed to make it to the bottom of the Second Division for a month or two. At the time Wisla fans fought with fans from other cities. A lot of this Wisla vs. Cracovia thing now is later hype.

2. I think that a big part of the story about the 100th years Cracovia/Wisla game is that actually NOT MUCH happened. I mean yeah, at one point it looked like there was going to be trouble but the cops moved in and managed to squelch it before second half resumed. I even seem to recall various newspaper headlines at the time which basically said "whew, that went off pretty well". The story in Polish press at the time was the relative ABSENCE of hooligan violence rather than some crazy riot like the documentary is trying to make it out to be. Basically, security did a good job on this one. And you can see it in the film - the obnoxious narrator dude with a way too
nice of a haircut (sorry if this is someone you know, he just *really* annoys me) keeps playing it up and hyping it up and is all like "oh my God this is so crazy" but then all that happens is that during half time some Cracovia fans throw some chairs at cops and that's it. Tame by the standards of Polish football.
Compare the footage in the documentary with some of the YouTube films that pop up when you look at it (like the fights in 1993 or the ones with English fans). That's some horrorshow ultra violence there. But just be forewarned that some of the people shooting that footage are not nice people and the music that those videos are often set to can be really bad (both aesthetically and ethically)

YouNotSneaky! said...

BTW, on American football - NFL fans are mostly male fans, but College Football (which is much more fun to watch anyway) is a lot more evenly split and family oriented.

beatroot said...

Well, two other criticisms of the docu now that I've watched almost the whole thing.

Sneaky, it's a scandal that you critique things you only watched a youtube part of anyway!

The lead narrator west ham fan character is the most contentious part of the film, you are right. I can't decide about him. In places it works, in places it does not.

But I think you would have to see the original Football Factory feature film - based on a very good fictional novel which I have on my bookshelves, to get the point of that guy.

YouNotSneaky! said...

Now that you mention it and I looked it up, I actually saw the original Football Factory (from your description I thought it was also a documentary) and found it pretty good. So that's what that narrator dude comes from, he did look familiar.

I haven't read that novel but I did read Among the Thugs like way back when (early 90's?). (It may be uncomfortable to admit it but there is a certain appeal to this whole hooligan thing if you're a teenage/early twenties male. I mean, at that age breaking shit and fightin' seems really fun)

beatroot said...

My apologies. There are actually three films. There is the Football Factory, which is fiction; then there was a documentary film that the same actor made which was a factual documentary. That was really successful on UK TV. And then what you see in the Poland film was part of the factual documentary follow up...

ge'ez said...

Ah-ha. Holding out? Not giving us the whole scoop?

What about the Ross Kemp documentary on Polish gangs? Not just football?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Z9XyePbHI

I'll check it out later.

ge'ez said...

The football factory guy seems a bit of a combination between the Chelsea Hooligans undercover investigator documentary -- Brad Pitt Fight Club -- and the chain smoking Agnieszka (Krystyna Janda) in Wajda's Man of Marble.

jannowak57 said...

“a na drzewach zamiast lisci beda wisiec komunisci”

A truly pleasant though, never too late to attend to unfinished business.

ge'ez said...

I think the Kemp documentary trumped the Football Factory piece several times over. The visit to one of the Nazi skinhead's flat and seeing a pretty wife there and a baby was entirely unexpected, I gotta admit. I wish Ross could have explored a little more of the home life -- and some sense given if he had a job or what.

SNEAKY: A couple questions.

Why is Cracovia more so associated with Jews than Wisla in grafitti? Proximity to Kazimierz? It also seemed that one of their hool firms is named Jude something or other. Could you explain?

Finally, I also rewatched the Football Factory piece during the "Dahrbee." It struck me how the Wisla fans also demonstrated their anti-police antipathies when the police were going after the Cracovia Anti-Wisla firm in the stands by shouting against the police to leave the Cracovia fans alone.

YouNotSneaky! said...

"Why is Cracovia more so associated with Jews than Wisla in grafitti? Proximity to Kazimierz? It also seemed that one of their hool firms is named Jude something or other. Could you explain?"

Yeah as far as I know it's the proximity to Kazimierz (old Jewish quarter) also there might be other aspects to it. Like "just because". A lot of these sub culture phenomenons (not just among football hooligans) arise more or less randomly and then get perpetuated through tradition. Also, in the documentary when the guy's talking to Anty-Wisla Cracovia guys in the tunnel in the background you can see some graffiti which says something like "Jude....". You can't quite make it out of the video but it's probably "Jude Gang" which is like a sub-firm within Anty-Wisla which is meant to celebrate Cracovia's association with Jewishness.

And yeah, the anti-police chants in support of Cracovia by Wisla fans were sort of ... I dunno, touching?

ge'ez said...

Any more info you or anybody can get and pass along on the Jude Gang will be greatly appreciated. How so they celebrate "Jewishness"?

I also recall seeing a lot of anti- Cracovia grafitti with the Star of David on a hangman's noose. At the time I assumed that the free standing Star of David on plain CRACOVIA grafitti was also put on by Wisla detractors. Now I'm gathering it may well have been put on to celebrate their "Jewishness" by the Jude Gang. Whacky stuff.

They sound somewhat like some of the backers of the Tottenheim Hotspurs.

YouNotSneaky! said...

Yeah I think it's basically like the Spurs and Ajax. I really don't know that much more than that. Somewhere I think I read that Cracovia fans claim that Cracovia players, or maybe fans helped to hide and save Jews during WWII and that's how the association started. Don't remember where this was, don't know if this is true or even if I remember it correctly.

Cracovia does have its own wiki though:
http://www.wikipasy.pl/

and some info on JG:
http://www.wikipasy.pl/Jude_Gang

But anyway, I'm from Wroclaw, just got some family in the Krakow area.

YouNotSneaky! said...

Oh one more thing that occurred to me after Beatroot's comment about the hooligans identifying with 'oppositional' or anticommunists politics; during the Martial Law the official government line, propagated on tv and other media was that the people out in the street protesting against political oppression were in fact just hooligans. There were specific attempts to "link" (more or less "frame") the opposition as a bunch of football supporters gone wild in order to discredit them. It was all pretty much bunk. But it seems like some present day hools have bought into the propaganda of that era and have turned it into a source of pride, however mistaken it really is.

ge'ez said...

Wow. Thanks. This page with photos of all the scarves gives some indication of all the ins and outs:
http://www.wikipasy.pl/Szaliki_antycracoviackie

YouNotSneaky! said...

This:

http://www.wikipasy.pl/%C5%BBydzi

makes for some really interesting reading not just about Wisla vs. Cracovia, but also the rivalry between two pre-war Jewish teams Jutrzenka (roughly associated with the Bund and left wing) and Makkabi (Zionist and somewhat right wing).

ge'ez said...

Thanks again, my Polish isn't that great but I'll struggle my way through the articles.

I've read, too, that Cracovia was JP2's favorite team.

Did you notice those two Wisla scarves at the url I posted above that read printed in English "I hate belts?"

I guess the first thing under "pasy" in the Polish-English dictionary was "belts" and not "stripes".

And the scarves with the Hebrew-looking typeface and pictures of the Orthodox Jew for Cracovia are quite amazing (you have to scroll down to about the middle):

http://www.wikipasy.pl/Szaliki_Cracovii

Still, there are some white power circle/cross symbols on some Cracovia scarves, too. Nuts.

ge'ez said...

Weird. When I try to get to the url you posted, I can't get in, except for the top of the page before it locks and a pop up comes up saying the site can't be opened. Could the Wiki article have been hacked by some Wisla hools? I notice there's a photo of the Wisla "Smierc Zydom" scarf at the upper right of the page.

YouNotSneaky! said...

It might be a problem with the 'zet z kropka'. The url works for me and I think the scarf is supposed to be there to exemplify Wisla.

Anonymous said...

Simon Mol was arrested for his now infamous behaviour.


Really?
But why did you defend him so much?

ge'ez said...

I finally got into the website.

Funny how their top photo there defines them in relation to Wisla's hatred of Cracovia -- and how their umbrella firm defines themselves foremost in terms of their hatred of Wisla, ie.: Anty-Wisla.

On the matter of money, there was an interesting, more or less, discussion here:

http://polishsoccer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13497

beatroot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beatroot said...

Quality stuff, Sneaky,…thanks.

Geez - have not seen the Kemp doc…but I know it got slagged a bit in the UK. Again, it’s the presenter who caused the controversy.

Do you know the story of Ross? Bassist in Spandau Ballet, but always overshadowed by his more talented, song writing brother. Eventually he left pop music and took up acting, most memorably in the soap opera Eastenders in which he played a hard man. Ever since then he has been typecast as a hard man and only gets hard man roles. So that documentary series is yet another Kemp acts hard thing.

But I will check it out on the tube.

But for me the great thing about the Polish film is the sequence in Krakow. No violence - and good! - but the sight of those scarves and the atmosphere was visually amazing. And the fight club stuff was just the weirdest…

ge'ez said...

I completely stopped listening to the media in the early 80s so I don't know doodly about Spandau Ballet. The Clash were the only band that mattered.

I think the Poland focus was the last of the whole bunch. I glanced at the Russian gangs and I don't think it was as good as the Polish piece overall. So maybe he got better as he went along.

As for Football Factories: No violence? Visually amazing in that it looked a bit like a Nuremburg rally?

beatroot said...

Spandau were New Romantic. But nowhere near the Clash - Jo Strummer's death was a shocker.

As for the footie hooligans...the elephant in the room is of course: Why do they do it? It's a career for some of them. That's quite sad, really, but I don;t think the film explained why they don;t go and join a stamp collecting club, or somehting...

ge'ez said...

Well, I've heard of the Black Rebel Motorcycle Club but never the White Power Stamp Collecting Club:

http://www.blackrebelmotorcycleclub.com/

beatroot said...

that's a knowing pop culture reference, Geez. Perhaps you are not pop culturally washed up just yet?

beatroot said...

Celtic goalkeeper Artur Boruc scored a goal mid week. It was in a penalty shoot out. Both Celtic and Dundee had already taken 10 penalties each and it was still tied. So the goalkeepers had to take one each. And Boruc's was a peach.

Celtic eventually won the game.

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=C_0AO5J1F3M

Anonymous said...

BTW why is the site of this racist criminal still online?


http://www.simonmol.com/

ge'ez said...

Just when everybody thought he was on the way out, he gets pulled back in.

Not Mol, the (not so recently) Holy Goalie.

Anonymous said...

Relax ge'ez!
Brotha Simon must be in heaven righ now.

beatroot said...

Anon - OK, you have made your point. But if you want to be accepted here then you are going to have to try and articulate an argument...

and this post is about soccer hooliganism. It's interesting. The comments so far have been interesting.

So, come on...improve....otherwise I am just going to delete you.

And what is the point of that? It's a waste of your time and mine...

ge'ez said...

It's as pointless as "Cracovia pany" grafitti.

ge'ez said...

Looks like the Russians in Moscow were watching and taking some cues from the Wisla - Cracovia Derby.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1133002/Violent-clashes-Russia-angry-protesters-Putin-resign-economy.html

Anonymous said...

REMEMBERING SIMON MOL: THE ANTIFASCIST OF THE YEAR

After 50 years of the warm, massaging feeling of Stalinist communism, the elites of Poland did the only logical thing in post-Berlin Wall Europe: they decided to fight fascism.

Fascism, as everyone knows, is rampant in this world, and it is good that a few brave, noble individuals fight against this haunting specter.

One of these brave individuals was Simon Mol. If you have not heard of this dear man, let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, you are not alone – I firmly believe that there is a vast rightwing conspiracy to flush his struggles down the memory hole, this noble warrior of the heart.

Allow me to introduce you to the man behind the myth: Simon Mol was born in the Ancient Kingdom of Cameroon. He bravely spoke out against the injustices that he saw every day and was exiled for his courage. According to the vast rightwing conspiracy this is a lie; he created this story to get into Europe as an asylum seeker. We can logically dissuade this fear-mongering in light of the obvious fact that no man would leave the tropical paradise of Sunny Africa for the cold, frigid fogs of Northern Europe, but alas, people never tire of bigotry.

When Dear Simon arrived in Poland he was given a car, an apartment, and a high amount of disposable income by the government, but is there anything wrong with this? After the shameful colonial history of Poland exploiting Africa for Her mineral resources is this not just compensation to the rightful victim?

And this is where the tragedy begins, my friends. Simon was falsely accused of spreading the HIV virus to 12 young, Polish girls, all of which helped him and his African Theatre. These girls all posed as leftist-college students but were really part of the vast rightwing conspiracy, and so it’s obvious that they will smear Dear Simon Mol, and say that he coerced them into sex, and that he accused them of ‘racism’ if they did not have sex with him. Discerning minds can see through such racist rubbish.

These girls are all ‘HIV Positive’ now. Where they got it from, I don’t know, but it wasn’t Simon Mol, who ‘died of AIDS,’ a few months ago.

The vast rightwing conspiracy has deleted the Wikipedia article on Simon Mol, but we must keep alive the truth. We must let the world know that the Antifascist of the Year was innocent, and that the real criminals are these ‘HIV victims,’ hateful racists every last one of them.

We must, and will keep alive the memory of this event, no matter how much the opposition tries to censor it.

ge'ez said...

Did he take corner kicks?

beatroot said...

:-)

Well...indeed.

But Anon, did you write that youself? Or did you get help? It's really rather good and an empassioned representation of your case. Truly.

now...what do you think about soccer hooliganism?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
YouNotSneaky! said...

BTW, did you see those 'real football hooligans' videos with, I believe, Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols (my wife was watching some romantic comedy so I had to watch it with the sound off) dressed up as a Templar (or something)? Those were a bit more violent.
Anyway. The question of "why do they do it?" is probably related to the question of "why are talking about it?"

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
beatroot said...

The question of "why do they do it?" is probably related to the question of "why are talking about it?"

That's way too clever for me, Sneak...explain what you mean.

ge'ez said...

Is there some kind of chronology to these exposes?

Chelsea Hooligans, Football Factories, Spandau Ballet's Ross Kemp, Sex Pistols' Steve Jones.

And where did the film Green Street / Hooligans fit in (2005)? I noticed that there's a blurb on the movie poster that claims that "Green Street makes the Football Factory look like a girly playground scrap." I've never seen the Football Factory movie (2004). Just looking at what I could read about it, my guess is that the latter was just a Hollywood knockup of the former, no?

Just noticed, too, that: Green Street 2: Stand your ground has been filmed and will be released in late 2009. The film will not star most of the main cast of the first film, but will star Ross McCall, who played Dave in the first film. He is the main character of this film.

In the plot, Dave got caught from the fight at the end of the first film and is put in a dangerous prison, where he must fight to survive.

...

I know there were a bunch of books, initially, too -- starting (?) with Football Factory by John King (1997).

ge'ez said...

Interesting reviews of the Football Factory movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0385705/usercomments

YouNotSneaky! said...

Green Street was pretty lame. Partly because I just can't buy Frodo as a football hooligan. And no, it doesn't make FF look like a girly scrap, rather the other way around.

Beet, I just meant that there's something inherently thrilling and exciting about random violence - due to evolutionary reasons from our past - which of course doesn't make it ok, or good, or nice or anything but bad, but it does explain why people, particularly young males, engage in it (and some people get addicted to its high, same way junkies get addicted to smack and they keep on doing it into their middle age) and it also explains why folks like us enjoy talking about it (living vicariously) and also why we like movies with violence in them, violent sports, etc. (which are all society's way of channeling those nasty evolutionary impulses into activities that are more or less socially harmless or even beneficial)

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ge'ez said...

Sneaky, I don't enjoy discussing it because its a way of vicariously experiencing it. At least I hope not. Maybe I might have gotten off on it when I was younger, though. It just that I like soccer and now as an old fart I'm weirded out by the fighting stuff and want to try to understand it. In reading a review of the Football Factory movie, I noticed one guy trying to imagine soccer fans outside the stadium tailgaiting like American football (not soccer) fans do all the time with different teams' fans ragging on each other but sharing barbecue. In Krakow, it seems, WK and Cracovia would barbecue each other's nuts over burning scarves right in the stadium if the police weren't there.

ge'ez said...

And yea, Frodo as soccer hool was lame. But I gotta give the guy credit for doing different roles. I especially liked him in the movie Everything is Illuminated where he plays an American Jew in search of his past in the Ukraine (the guy who plays his tour guide is the lead singer from a Gypsy Punk band Gogol Bordello):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8eURkYkeLw

Harry said...

You're getting your Eastender Kemps muddled up BR: Martin Kemp was the bass player from Spandau Ballet. Ross Kemp is no relation to him.

beatroot said...

So...what is Ross doing making documentaries about gangsters for...he's a musician...kind of...

beakerkin said...

Yes these soccer fans should have couched their bigotry in Marxist rhetoric like those at a so called "Peace Protest" or an academic gulag. Only PC forms of populist bigotry are needed for entryist alliances with Jihadis, Nazis and the tin foil hat brigade.

If you think this is a joke a academic hack in the UK used material from a well known KKK site. Then again Renegade Spleen is linked to a site regularly featured on Stormfront. He allows this commenter to post the same material without critical comment.

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Penegra Online said...

I glanced at the Russian gangs and I don't think it was as good as the Polish piece overall.

Penegra Online said...

you may think that football hooligans glorifying themselves as some sort of political/social service is silly

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