Simon MolSimon Mol (November 6, 1973 in Buea, Cameroon) is pen name of Simon Moleke Njie, a Cameroon-born journalist, writer and political activist, known mainly in Poland.
Njie was born in an English-speaking family in former British Cameroon. In June 1999 he arrived in Poland as a member of Ghanaian PEN Club delegation on a PEN annual congress in Warsaw. Immediately, Mol applied for asylum, which was granted in September 2000.
In Poland he wrote poems, founded a small theater called Migrator Theatre [1] and engaged in political campaigns for the rights of refugees, anti-racism, anti-fascism and environmental protection.
On January 5, 2006 Njie was taken into custody by the Polish police and charged with infecting his sexual partners with HIV. According to the Rzeczpospolita newspaper, he was identified with HIV back in 1999 while living in a refugee shelter, but the Polish law was unable to force a HIV carrier to reveal the disease to his partners or to order treatment. When living in Poland Mol allegedly persuaded women to have unprotected sex with him by arguing that using a condom with a black man is a sign of racism and racist fears.
By July 2007 fourteen women have been identified with HIV, while others are waiting for test results. Several women had informed Mol that they had contracted HIV from him but he ignored it. Before Christmas 2006 rumours of Mol's infection started to spread over the internet; he explicitly denied them in a public letter. After the arrest Mol denied any knowledge of being an HIV carrier and accused the police of racism.
Hi Beat, Enjoy your Venetian holiday. When you get back, check out 60 Minutes, June 17,2007, segment "The mother of all heists" Interesting Polish connection with one of the major players.
According to the findings of the prosecutor’s office, the number of women infected with HIV by the Cameroonian refugee Simon Mol has gone up to 14 and still growing, writes daily "Rzeczpospolita".
“It is a very unusual and delicate case. Interrogations are very difficult”, said Paweł Nowak, head of the District Prosecutor’s Office in Warszawa- Żoliborz.
The prosecutor’s office tracked down some of the women thanks to the information from their friends who knew that the women had had sexual relations with the Cameroonian.
Mol, the most famous political refugee in Poland, may lose his right to political asylum in Poland. Following a journalistic investigation conducted by the newspaper in Africa, Rzeczpospolita found out that Mol had made up his heroic biography and had never been jailed in Africa for political activism.
“As soon as the indictment is issued, we‘ll demand that Simon Mol be interrogated”, said Jan Węgrzyn, head of the Office for Repatriation and Aliens. Investigation in still under way to find out if Simon Mol’s political asylum had been illegally obtained.
Simon Mol (Simon Moleke Njie), a Cameroonian writer and journalist freelancing with the Voice, was granted the Antifascist of the Year 2003 award by the Nigdy Więcej (Never Again) social association, which monitors and combats trends such as neofascism, racism and xenophobia
Neofascism, racism, and xenophobia. Three great evils that must be stopped along with all other biological barriers to preventing these beasts contaminating Europe with their blood. Apparently he told those halfwits that demanding safe sex was an expression of racial prejudice - guaranteed to make a leftie's heart melt.
"Neofascism, racism, and xenophobia. Three great evils that must be stopped along with all other biological barriers to preventing these beasts contaminating Europe with their blood."
Wow. It's fascinating to see what crawls out of the woodwork when blog owner isn't around to moderate.
You lucky git, Beatroot! I love Venice and wish I could punt but I can't; my arms are too short. Can you? Did you? Tinky Winky (not xenophobic towards Italian men with Tinky Winky style handbags)
Quick quiz for all the Polish patriots who are taking advantage of Beatroot being on holiday to post their bigoted bullshit: Who was responsible for more people catching HIV? Was it: a) heroic Pope JP II who declared that it is better to catch HIV from somebody who you know has HIV than to use a condom because God will never forgive you for using that condom; or b) Simon Mol who allegedly refused to wear a condom despite allegedly knowing he had HIV and if he did know and did insist on not using a condom and allegedly caused the infection of up to 15 women but if he did so, was doing exactly what the Pope told him to do.
So which is it? The guy who gave millions HIV because he told them they could not use condoms no matter what or the guy who allegedly gave up to 15 people HIV because he did exactly what the first guy told him to?
Oh, I’m sorry, one of the two guys is black and therefore obviously at fault. And the current Pope is a former member of the Hitler Youth and so would fit right in with modern Polish politics.
While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of your post, and have always been a bit puzzled by the extent of the reverence of the Polish people towards "their" pope, I don't think you can absolve Mol of responsibility of his actions because 'the pope told him to do it'. If he was following the guidance of the pope, he wouldn't have had sex with these women in the first place.
On an international scale, the pope's decree is disastrous, but that doesn't detract from the apparent callousness of Mol knowingly infecting people (allegedly).
Harry, the answer is Simon Mol. If the pope actually pulled the rubbers off Catholics right before they had sex, then he'd be more responsible (assuming that they were universally carriers of AIDS). Also, I was unaware that Mol was either a Catholic or that he would have listened to and obeyed the pope. Go ahead Harry. Keep defending Mol. And keep attacking Catholicism in Poland. Smart.
Jake, Harry did not mention absolving Mol of the responsibility for his actions anywhere in his entry.
Who’s the bigot?, your argument that unless the pope himself pulls the condoms off the Catholics’ dicks he bears no responsibility for the effects of his pronouncements is, to put it mildly, illogical. Proximate causation as it may be it’s still causation.
Jake , who’s the bigot?, et al: You guys need to try to learn how to read first and for your opinions later. Harry is simply (and IMHO correctly) pointing out that on a big scale the Pope is responsible for much greater number of people suffering from and dying of AIDS than the Mol guy. There is really no logical way around it. Otherwise, neither Hitler nor Stalin could be held accountable for the atrocities committed by the Nazis and the NKVD/KGB - neither one of them personally killed anybody…. Would that be a morally acceptable conclusion?
BTW: I do sometimes marvel at the ability of Polish Catholics to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Pope was indeed in Hitler Jugend. I guess no ‘lustration’ for that….
I find it mildly offensive that you imply that my opinions are irrelevant because I "need to try to learn how to read first". Clearly I am capable of reading; clearly I read before I posted (it was a response after all); clearly, you didn't actually bother to read my post properly.
If you look back you'll see that I actually agreed for the most part with Harry, though while he does not directly mention absolving Mol of responsibility, he implies it by saying "because he did exactly what the first guy told him to".
I abhor the official Catholic stance on contraception - but that can't even slightly vindicate malicious actions on a personal level.
Heat seeker: The Pope, right or wrong, says don't fuck unless you're married. What part of that don't you understand? Why do you insist on focusing on only one part of his teaching and ignoring the rest? To claim that he is responsible for people who chose to have sex for their suffering with AIDs is ridiculous. Do you really believe that Catholics say let's not use rubbers because the pope says so but then go ahead andy conclude let's ignore what he says about pre-marital or extra-marital sex? And if you're not Catholic, wtf do you care what he says? Ignore him. Listen to the Taliban instead. Stone some women or kite-flyers. Let's face it, the vast majority of Catholics don't give a rat's ass about what he says especially about rubbers. BTW, because of your privelged position, you are responsible for the suffering of the poor in this world, too. Jugend Bourgie.
Jake, my apologies for not being clear - I did not mean to imply you can’t read. I was trying to caution against preconceived ideas.
“Real worker”: I appreciate your honesty – you don’t give a flying fuck about anything that does not directly affect you and you make no excuses for it. That’s hunky-dory. My question is: Why do you come across so angry? At me..?! You don’t know me from Adam. You don’t know whether I’m a Catholic or not…. whether I’m privileged or not… At this point I know much more about you than you know about me. And, let me tell you, the picture ain’t so pretty. Cheers – I gotta go now, stone me some women, fly kites (??) and listen to the Taliban…
Jaysus BR, get your ass back here asap. before we get swamped with anon. tripe that we've heard a zillion times before. Cut short the holidays - Venice is a shit hole anyway;) How could you ever choose it over armchair debating with anonymous arsewipes who are so fucking obsessed SM (methinks a modification of his initials into 2 new words {SadoMasochism} could give us an inkling into the mindset of those who having nothing else to think or write about).
So geh ouh a dem canals and back to your laptop - shur the aul computer will keep ya as warm as any Italian sun wud!
I was trying to caution against preconceived ideas.
<><
... like the idea that the pope is a Nazi, that he's responsible for most of the evil in the world especially AIDs, that all Catholics blindly follow everything he says (and from what some folks here are writing, non-Catholics too) ...
"Who was responsible for more people catching HIV? Was it: a) heroic Pope JP II"
Without wanting to defend the Vatican on this issue, I think voting for a) grossly overestimates the power and influence of the church over popular opinion in Africa.
How can a church so overrun by bigots and xenophobes hold any hope of expanding beyond its current borders these days? What role could Radio Maria play in evangelising?
Exactly. The Catholic HIV link is spurious. If it were so then countries with a high catholic population would have higher rates than non catholic. Not so.
The two worst-hit countries (not only in Africa, but the world) are Swaziland, where the [infection]rate is 38.8 per cent, and Botswana, where it is 37.3 per cent. Yet these countries have low numbers of practicing Catholics: in Swaziland, between 10 and 20 per cent of the population is Catholic, while 40 per cent are Zionist (a blend of Christianity and indigenous ancestral worship) and 10 per cent are Muslim; in Botswana fewer than 5 per cent are Catholic, with 85 per cent of the population subscribing to ancient indigenous beliefs.’
I do sometimes marvel at the ability of Polish Catholics to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Pope was indeed in Hitler Jugend.
Duh! Because back then everyone his age was in Hitlerjugend. From wikipedia:
By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory, under the Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend law. This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ.
Similarly, in Poland, under the communism everyone who was doing military service (which was compulsory and if you refused, you ended up in jail) had to pledge allegiance to the People's Republic of Poland and the Soviet Union. Yet, nobody accusses Lech Wałęsa of collaborating with Soviets!
The perspective of ignorant armchair moralists is truly refreshing.
As far as I know (according to the archive documents of SB) Walentynowicz and Gwiada were controlled by SB (witout their intention of cooperation).
For me it sems to be very probably. Among primitives there were also bright people in SB. For them it was not difficult to control such a honest but simple minds like Walentynowicz or Gwiazda.
It is realy difficult to say what party they support (as a matter of fact three of them not both since we talko about Andrzej i Joanna Gwiazdowie (marriage) and Anna Walentynowicz). I think all they are very old people living within their memories.
There is one thing I have to admit - they are very honest people and they have nothing in common with today's politicians. They were fighting for what they belied and they gave most of their lifes for it. Unlike Lech Walensa, they are poor nowadays (especialy Walentynowicz who lives her life close to social minimum in Poland.
It is so ironic, she was invigilated by abt. 100 SB secret officers, SB wanted to kill her with poison. Others, who did not suffer at all (like Kaczynski&Kaczynski) live in splendor and luckshery.
No metter if they (Gwazada/Walentynowicz) were controlled by SB or not, we Poles should respect them as a real heroes of that times.
I have never heard any 'open support' for Radio Maryja from Gwiazdas or Walentynowicz although DJ Rydzyk and his RM team use some accusation against Lech Walesa, formed by Gwiazdas/Walentynowicz for its propaganda purposes.
According to earlier posts about Radio Maryja - I would like to stress that most of Poles (no metter Catholics or not) treat Radio Maryja as idiots. In common Polish we often sej 'Radio z ryjem' according to name 'Radio Maryja' -> sounds like 'Radio ma ryja' -> means 'Radio with pig's face'
nice to see the bigot crew rallying to support the former bigot-in-chief.
And thanks for your quote about Pope HitlerJungen. May I repeat a part of it? This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ. So by your own statement not all young people in Germany were Hitler Jungen but the beloved Pope was. But that's OK because most people were.
Oh, so, Anna Walentynowicz and Andrzej Gwiazda are simply accusing Walesa of dancing with Jaruzelski?
This is precisely my point: they are accusing him of collaborating willingly with SB when he was a trade union leader. They are not accusing him of supporting Soviet Union when he served in the army (though technically he did).
Accusing Benedict XVI of serving in Hitlerjugend makes as much sense (i.e. none).
If you cared to look at the quoted source (instead of selectively highlighting words, and skipping the ones you don't like, i.e. "mandatory"), you'd find the text that follows:
Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the HJ.
I will repeat it just for you: virtually every young male in Germany was connected to the HJ. Of course you can now argue what is the extent of the term "virtually every", but I think you should rather discuss that with Mr. Webster.
So Harry, if Ratzinger was supportive of the Nazis by being a Hitler Youth, it seems that if you are consistent with your train of logic then you have to conclude that Walesa was supportive of the Soviet Union because he was in the Polish Army.
Do you agree with the latter assessment about Lech Walesa? If so, you even go beyond what Walentynowicz and the Gwiazdas are saying about him.
I'd say Walentynowicz and the Gwiazdas support PiS (as much as they support anyone).
IINM they only accepted the white eagle (highest Polish honor) after Kaczynski was elected and regard him as the first non-traitor president of post communist Poland.
Interestingly among the papers Walesa put up on the internet are SB files detailing plans to initiate(?) aggravate(?) conflicts between Walesa and Walentynowicz.
Walesa says that's proof that she was being manipulated by the SB. She, on the other hand, says he's a traitor who should be scalped and should be happy he hasn't been executed yet*.
*actually people I know disagree about the exact meaning of the phrase she used 'dostać w czapę'.
I just asked my friends (at work) how do they understand 'dostać w czapę'. Most of them answered: to hit (to beat) someone ('zlać kogoś, pobić') but not to kill. Although I have to admit that in some circumstances 'dostać w czapę' may be understood as to execute someone.
From my reading of the history of Solidarnosc and my discussions with folks, I previously held them in the highest regard. Even considered them personal heroes of sorts
Ref this talk about the Pope. I'm a bit confused. By any modern standards of legal accountability a minor is not held responsible for something in the same way an adult is. Therefore the whole conversation as regards whether the Pope was in the HJ or not is debuct. The HJ by very definition was a youth organisation and so any members were not fully acountabole for their actions. What i am trying to say is that he may have been press-ganged, he may have volunteered, who cares! He was a child and we all make mistakes. I would not like to be held acountable now for aomething i did or belived 15-20 years ago. He was 12 when the war broke out and 17 when Hitler died.
39 comments:
Lovely - hope you enjoyed your trip
Off to Cyprus tomorrow
More another day:-)
Go away and take this friend of yours with you:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Simon MolSimon Mol (November 6, 1973 in Buea, Cameroon) is pen name of Simon Moleke Njie, a Cameroon-born journalist, writer and political activist, known mainly in Poland.
Njie was born in an English-speaking family in former British Cameroon. In June 1999 he arrived in Poland as a member of Ghanaian PEN Club delegation on a PEN annual congress in Warsaw. Immediately, Mol applied for asylum, which was granted in September 2000.
In Poland he wrote poems, founded a small theater called Migrator Theatre [1] and engaged in political campaigns for the rights of refugees, anti-racism, anti-fascism and environmental protection.
On January 5, 2006 Njie was taken into custody by the Polish police and charged with infecting his sexual partners with HIV. According to the Rzeczpospolita newspaper, he was identified with HIV back in 1999 while living in a refugee shelter, but the Polish law was unable to force a HIV carrier to reveal the disease to his partners or to order treatment. When living in Poland Mol allegedly persuaded women to have unprotected sex with him by arguing that using a condom with a black man is a sign of racism and racist fears.
By July 2007 fourteen women have been identified with HIV, while others are waiting for test results. Several women had informed Mol that they had contracted HIV from him but he ignored it. Before Christmas 2006 rumours of Mol's infection started to spread over the internet; he explicitly denied them in a public letter. After the arrest Mol denied any knowledge of being an HIV carrier and accused the police of racism.
Hi Beat,
Enjoy your Venetian holiday. When you get back, check out 60 Minutes, June 17,2007, segment "The mother of all heists" Interesting Polish connection with one of the major players.
MORE VICTIMS OF SIMON MOL
According to the findings of the prosecutor’s office, the number of women infected with HIV by the Cameroonian refugee Simon Mol has gone up to 14 and still growing, writes daily "Rzeczpospolita".
“It is a very unusual and delicate case. Interrogations are very difficult”, said Paweł Nowak, head of the District Prosecutor’s Office in Warszawa- Żoliborz.
The prosecutor’s office tracked down some of the women thanks to the information from their friends who knew that the women had had sexual relations with the Cameroonian.
Mol, the most famous political refugee in Poland, may lose his right to political asylum in Poland. Following a journalistic investigation conducted by the newspaper in Africa, Rzeczpospolita found out that Mol had made up his heroic biography and had never been jailed in Africa for political activism.
“As soon as the indictment is issued, we‘ll demand that Simon Mol be interrogated”, said Jan Węgrzyn, head of the Office for Repatriation and Aliens. Investigation in still under way to find out if Simon Mol’s political asylum had been illegally obtained.
http://www.thenews.pl/archives/645-More-victims-of-Simon-Mol.html
Simon Mol (Simon Moleke Njie), a Cameroonian writer and journalist
freelancing with the Voice, was granted the Antifascist of the Year
2003 award by the Nigdy Więcej (Never Again) social association, which
monitors and combats trends such as neofascism, racism and xenophobia
Neofascism, racism, and xenophobia. Three great evils that must be
stopped along with all other biological barriers to preventing these
beasts contaminating Europe with their blood. Apparently he told those
halfwits that demanding safe sex was an expression of racial prejudice
- guaranteed to make a leftie's heart melt.
LOL LOL
Have fun.
"Neofascism, racism, and xenophobia. Three great evils that must be
stopped along with all other biological barriers to preventing these
beasts contaminating Europe with their blood."
Wow. It's fascinating to see what crawls out of the woodwork when blog owner isn't around to moderate.
You lucky git, Beatroot! I love Venice and wish I could punt but I can't; my arms are too short. Can you? Did you?
Tinky Winky (not xenophobic towards Italian men with Tinky Winky style handbags)
At least nobody started the canals were caused by global warming bit.
Quick quiz for all the Polish patriots who are taking advantage of Beatroot being on holiday to post their bigoted bullshit:
Who was responsible for more people catching HIV?
Was it:
a) heroic Pope JP II who declared that it is better to catch HIV from somebody who you know has HIV than to use a condom because God will never forgive you for using that condom;
or
b) Simon Mol who allegedly refused to wear a condom despite allegedly knowing he had HIV and if he did know and did insist on not using a condom and allegedly caused the infection of up to 15 women but if he did so, was doing exactly what the Pope told him to do.
So which is it? The guy who gave millions HIV because he told them they could not use condoms no matter what or the guy who allegedly gave up to 15 people HIV because he did exactly what the first guy told him to?
Oh, I’m sorry, one of the two guys is black and therefore obviously at fault. And the current Pope is a former member of the Hitler Youth and so would fit right in with modern Polish politics.
Harry
While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of your post, and have always been a bit puzzled by the extent of the reverence of the Polish people towards "their" pope, I don't think you can absolve Mol of responsibility of his actions because 'the pope told him to do it'. If he was following the guidance of the pope, he wouldn't have had sex with these women in the first place.
On an international scale, the pope's decree is disastrous, but that doesn't detract from the apparent callousness of Mol knowingly infecting people (allegedly).
Harry, the answer is Simon Mol. If the pope actually pulled the rubbers off Catholics right before they had sex, then he'd be more responsible (assuming that they were universally carriers of AIDS). Also, I was unaware that Mol was either a Catholic or that he would have listened to and obeyed the pope. Go ahead Harry. Keep defending Mol. And keep attacking Catholicism in Poland. Smart.
Jake, Harry did not mention absolving Mol of the responsibility for his actions anywhere in his entry.
Who’s the bigot?, your argument that unless the pope himself pulls the condoms off the Catholics’ dicks he bears no responsibility for the effects of his pronouncements is, to put it mildly, illogical. Proximate causation as it may be it’s still causation.
Jake , who’s the bigot?, et al: You guys need to try to learn how to read first and for your opinions later. Harry is simply (and IMHO correctly) pointing out that on a big scale the Pope is responsible for much greater number of people suffering from and dying of AIDS than the Mol guy. There is really no logical way around it. Otherwise, neither Hitler nor Stalin could be held accountable for the atrocities committed by the Nazis and the NKVD/KGB - neither one of them personally killed anybody…. Would that be a morally acceptable conclusion?
BTW: I do sometimes marvel at the ability of Polish Catholics to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Pope was indeed in Hitler Jugend. I guess no ‘lustration’ for that….
Heat_seeker
I find it mildly offensive that you imply that my opinions are irrelevant because I "need to try to learn how to read first". Clearly I am capable of reading; clearly I read before I posted (it was a response after all); clearly, you didn't actually bother to read my post properly.
If you look back you'll see that I actually agreed for the most part with Harry, though while he does not directly mention absolving Mol of responsibility, he implies it by saying "because he did exactly what the first guy told him to".
I abhor the official Catholic stance on contraception - but that can't even slightly vindicate malicious actions on a personal level.
Heat seeker: The Pope, right or wrong, says don't fuck unless you're married. What part of that don't you understand? Why do you insist on focusing on only one part of his teaching and ignoring the rest? To claim that he is responsible for people who chose to have sex for their suffering with AIDs is ridiculous. Do you really believe that Catholics say let's not use rubbers because the pope says so but then go ahead andy conclude let's ignore what he says about pre-marital or extra-marital sex? And if you're not Catholic, wtf do you care what he says? Ignore him. Listen to the Taliban instead. Stone some women or kite-flyers. Let's face it, the vast majority of Catholics don't give a rat's ass about what he says especially about rubbers. BTW, because of your privelged position, you are responsible for the suffering of the poor in this world, too. Jugend Bourgie.
Jake, my apologies for not being clear - I did not mean to imply you can’t read. I was trying to caution against preconceived ideas.
“Real worker”: I appreciate your honesty – you don’t give a flying fuck about anything that does not directly affect you and you make no excuses for it. That’s hunky-dory. My question is: Why do you come across so angry? At me..?! You don’t know me from Adam. You don’t know whether I’m a Catholic or not…. whether I’m privileged or not… At this point I know much more about you than you know about me. And, let me tell you, the picture ain’t so pretty. Cheers – I gotta go now, stone me some women, fly kites (??) and listen to the Taliban…
Jaysus BR, get your ass back here asap. before we get swamped with anon. tripe that we've heard a zillion times before. Cut short the holidays - Venice is a shit hole anyway;) How could you ever choose it over armchair debating with anonymous arsewipes who are so fucking obsessed SM (methinks a modification of his initials into 2 new words {SadoMasochism} could give us an inkling into the mindset of those who having nothing else to think or write about).
So geh ouh a dem canals and back to your laptop - shur the aul computer will keep ya as warm as any Italian sun wud!
Harry is BLACK like Simon Mol.
That´s why he will defend his brotha until the death of the Antifascist of the year.
I was trying to caution against preconceived ideas.
<><
... like the idea that the pope is a Nazi, that he's responsible for most of the evil in the world especially AIDs, that all Catholics blindly follow everything he says (and from what some folks here are writing, non-Catholics too) ...
"Who was responsible for more people catching HIV?
Was it:
a) heroic Pope JP II"
Without wanting to defend the Vatican on this issue, I think voting for a) grossly overestimates the power and influence of the church over popular opinion in Africa.
How can a church so overrun by bigots and xenophobes hold any hope of expanding beyond its current borders these days? What role could Radio Maria play in evangelising?
Exactly. The Catholic HIV link is spurious. If it were so then countries with a high catholic population would have higher rates than non catholic. Not so.
The two worst-hit countries (not only in Africa, but the world) are Swaziland, where the [infection]rate is 38.8 per cent, and Botswana, where it is 37.3 per cent. Yet these countries have low numbers of practicing Catholics: in Swaziland, between 10 and 20 per cent of the population is Catholic, while 40 per cent are Zionist (a blend of Christianity and indigenous ancestral worship) and 10 per cent are Muslim; in Botswana fewer than 5 per cent are Catholic, with 85 per cent of the population subscribing to ancient indigenous beliefs.’
Sounds like another preconceived notion to me: "a church so overrun by bigots and xenophobes."
And I'd say it'd be a pretty safe bet to say that the vast majority of Polish Catholic think the folks running RM are rather silly.
I do sometimes marvel at the ability of Polish Catholics to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Pope was indeed in Hitler Jugend.
Duh! Because back then everyone his age was in Hitlerjugend. From wikipedia:
By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory, under the Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend law. This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ.
Similarly, in Poland, under the communism everyone who was doing military service (which was compulsory and if you refused, you ended up in jail) had to pledge allegiance to the People's Republic of Poland and the Soviet Union. Yet, nobody accusses Lech Wałęsa of collaborating with Soviets!
The perspective of ignorant armchair moralists is truly refreshing.
Yet, nobody accusses Lech Wałęsa of collaborating with Soviets!
Oh, so, Anna Walentynowicz and Andrzej Gwiazda are simply accusing Walesa of dancing with Jaruzelski?
As far as I know (according to the archive documents of SB) Walentynowicz and Gwiada were controlled by SB (witout their intention of cooperation).
For me it sems to be very probably. Among primitives there were also bright people in SB. For them it was not difficult to control such a honest but simple minds like Walentynowicz or Gwiazda.
MaciekQBN
I'm curious as to Gwiazda's and Walentynowicz's feelings about Radio Maryja.
Also, what party do either or both of them support?
It is realy difficult to say what party they support (as a matter of fact three of them not both since we talko about Andrzej i Joanna Gwiazdowie (marriage) and Anna Walentynowicz). I think all they are very old people living within their memories.
There is one thing I have to admit - they are very honest people and they have nothing in common with today's politicians. They were fighting for what they belied and they gave most of their lifes for it. Unlike Lech Walensa, they are poor nowadays (especialy Walentynowicz who lives her life close to social minimum in Poland.
It is so ironic, she was invigilated by abt. 100 SB secret officers, SB wanted to kill her with poison. Others, who did not suffer at all (like Kaczynski&Kaczynski) live in splendor and luckshery.
No metter if they (Gwazada/Walentynowicz) were controlled by SB or not, we Poles should respect them as a real heroes of that times.
I have never heard any 'open support' for Radio Maryja from Gwiazdas or Walentynowicz although DJ Rydzyk and his RM team use some accusation against Lech Walesa, formed by Gwiazdas/Walentynowicz for its propaganda purposes.
According to earlier posts about Radio Maryja - I would like to stress that most of Poles (no metter Catholics or not) treat Radio Maryja as idiots.
In common Polish we often sej 'Radio z ryjem' according to name 'Radio Maryja' -> sounds like 'Radio ma ryja' -> means 'Radio with pig's face'
MaciekQBN
Hi opamp,
nice to see the bigot crew rallying to support the former bigot-in-chief.
And thanks for your quote about Pope HitlerJungen. May I repeat a part of it?
This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ.
So by your own statement not all young people in Germany were Hitler Jungen but the beloved Pope was. But that's OK because most people were.
Harry
Oh, so, Anna Walentynowicz and Andrzej Gwiazda are simply accusing Walesa of dancing with Jaruzelski?
This is precisely my point: they are accusing him of collaborating willingly with SB when he was a trade union leader. They are not accusing him of supporting Soviet Union when he served in the army (though technically he did).
Accusing Benedict XVI of serving in Hitlerjugend makes as much sense (i.e. none).
Harry dear,
If you cared to look at the quoted source (instead of selectively highlighting words, and skipping the ones you don't like, i.e. "mandatory"), you'd find the text that follows:
Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the HJ.
I will repeat it just for you: virtually every young male in Germany was connected to the HJ. Of course you can now argue what is the extent of the term "virtually every", but I think you should rather discuss that with Mr. Webster.
So Harry, if Ratzinger was supportive of the Nazis by being a Hitler Youth, it seems that if you are consistent with your train of logic then you have to conclude that Walesa was supportive of the Soviet Union because he was in the Polish Army.
Do you agree with the latter assessment about Lech Walesa? If so, you even go beyond what Walentynowicz and the Gwiazdas are saying about him.
Just trying to set the record correctly.
I'd say Walentynowicz and the Gwiazdas support PiS (as much as they support anyone).
IINM they only accepted the white eagle (highest Polish honor) after Kaczynski was elected and regard him as the first non-traitor president of post communist Poland.
Interestingly among the papers Walesa put up on the internet are SB files detailing plans to initiate(?) aggravate(?) conflicts between Walesa and Walentynowicz.
Walesa says that's proof that she was being manipulated by the SB. She, on the other hand, says he's a traitor who should be scalped and should be happy he hasn't been executed yet*.
*actually people I know disagree about the exact meaning of the phrase she used 'dostać w czapę'.
I just asked my friends (at work) how do they understand 'dostać w czapę'. Most of them answered: to hit (to beat) someone ('zlać kogoś, pobić') but not to kill. Although I have to admit that in some circumstances 'dostać w czapę' may be understood as to execute someone.
Maciekqbn
Acoording to the dictionary it means:
1. to be executed by a firing squad
2. to be hit on the head
Pick you choice...
I'm actually very sorry to hear they are PiSsers.
From my reading of the history of Solidarnosc and my discussions with folks, I previously held them in the highest regard. Even considered them personal heroes of sorts
Tip of the hat for the responses.
I used to admire Walentynowicz a lot, but she's turned into something like the crazy cat lady (minus the cats)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i6d6sNsqxE
Ref this talk about the Pope. I'm a bit confused. By any modern standards of legal accountability a minor is not held responsible for something in the same way an adult is. Therefore the whole conversation as regards whether the Pope was in the HJ or not is debuct. The HJ by very definition was a youth organisation and so any members were not fully acountabole for their actions. What i am trying to say is that he may have been press-ganged, he may have volunteered, who cares! He was a child and we all make mistakes. I would not like to be held acountable now for aomething i did or belived 15-20 years ago. He was 12 when the war broke out and 17 when Hitler died.
Acoording to the dictionary it means:
1. to be executed by a firing squad
2. to be hit on the head...
Perhaps it was...you know...a pun...?
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