tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post6733495962220052741..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: A week is a long time in Polish politicsbeatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-82683701552465592632013-02-23T15:43:01.388+01:002013-02-23T15:43:01.388+01:00WOW just what I was searching for. Came here
by s...WOW just what I was searching for. Came here <br />by searching for 500 payday loan<br /><br />Also visit my homepage - <a href="http://deptak.org/link/6808" rel="nofollow">merchant account cash advance</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-7769562118671626122007-05-01T02:38:00.000+02:002007-05-01T02:38:00.000+02:00I realized that the original solidarity people did...<I><BR/>I realized that the original solidarity people did not have a market economy as their goal (and resented having one thrust upon the country) I had no idea they were quite _that_ wrong-headed.</I><BR/><BR/>Wrong headed? They were workers. A worker against a market economy is as wrong headed as a businessman against communism.Korakioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593180610210015493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-36193372172701486552007-04-30T23:12:00.000+02:002007-04-30T23:12:00.000+02:00@michael farris:On the Solidarity demands, I reall...@michael farris:<BR/><BR/><I>On the Solidarity demands, I really should look up the originals, but in the translation cited, there's not much that I could support....</I><BR/><BR/>Now that's very interesting. Could you please elaborate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-49490531148615500822007-04-30T20:26:00.000+02:002007-04-30T20:26:00.000+02:00There is a good chapter on the Solidarity demands ...There is a good chapter on the Solidarity demands in Timothy Ash's book. It was a democratic socialist document. <BR/><BR/>And the lustracja has turned into a mania....it's all about TeraZ Kurwa Mybeatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-76450957093035521522007-04-30T20:24:00.000+02:002007-04-30T20:24:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-17952165211421654722007-04-30T20:05:00.000+02:002007-04-30T20:05:00.000+02:00On the Solidarity demands, I really should look up...On the Solidarity demands, I really should look up the originals, but in the translation cited, there's not much that I could support....<BR/><BR/>I realized that the original solidarity people did not have a market economy as their goal (and resented having one thrust upon the country) I had no idea they were quite _that_ wrong-headed.<BR/><BR/>It's almost enough to make me sympathize with the party that had to try deal with these people ... almost.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-38039435030037600162007-04-30T20:01:00.000+02:002007-04-30T20:01:00.000+02:00Sometimes I think that the Kaczynski's are perform...Sometimes I think that the Kaczynski's are performance art geniuses (and not bad politicians after all).<BR/><BR/>They've managed to make signing their stupid little lustration into an crisis of conscience for many people who never worked with the secret services<BR/>It's all rather similar to that felt by many who were enticed / intimidated into working with the secret police in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Irony surrenders.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-9036299427283937402007-04-30T19:54:00.000+02:002007-04-30T19:54:00.000+02:00I dont feel spineless because I know I am not. And...I dont feel spineless because I know I am not. And if you knew the circumstances of each signing, and why it was signed, then you might be in a position to understand enough to judge. But you are not. So you can't. <BR/><BR/>Mate.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-54404458365925198962007-04-30T15:36:00.000+02:002007-04-30T15:36:00.000+02:00beatroot said: Then you are not in a position t...<I>beatroot said:<BR/><BR/> Then you are not in a position to judge anyone, are you?</I><BR/><BR/>Great argument, mate. I also never lived in Nazi Germany. Ergo, I cannot judge those who denounced Jews etc. They might have got in trouble, if they didn't do it. <BR/><BR/> I'm not saying I wouldn't have signed it, too. I'm only saying that if I did, I'd also think of myself as spineless. <BR/>You can't have it both ways.<BR/><BR/>yAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-47711692613550311612007-04-29T23:55:00.000+02:002007-04-29T23:55:00.000+02:00Thanks mate, that was very helpful. The working...Thanks mate, that was very helpful.<BR/><BR/><I><BR/><BR/> The working class only exists if it is aware that it exists in the way that you mean.</I> <BR/><BR/>That's a rather idealist way of looking a things. A flame can burn you whether you are aware of its existence or not. The level of consciousness amongst the working class doesn't change the objective fact of its existence. Consciousness is largely contingent on the acuteness of class struggle and of course, the information war.<BR/><BR/><I>And if the class struggle always existed then why did they only start talking about it in the way you do in the mid 1800s?</I><BR/><BR/>The class struggle hasn't always existed. It has existed for as long as classes have existed. Just as the earth hasn't always revolved around the sun, but it has been revolving around the sun ever since this solar system came into existence.<BR/><BR/>As for why they didn't start talking about it until the 1800s, I think that's a bit of a weak argument against its validity. Hooke didn't discover cells until the 17th century. Does that mean that organisms were made of something else before then?<BR/><BR/><I>And why don’t they talk about it today the same way as they did in the 1970s (because they do not)? </I><BR/><BR/>I don't quite get what you mean here. Can you elaborate?Korakioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593180610210015493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-36331818531267060082007-04-29T23:39:00.000+02:002007-04-29T23:39:00.000+02:00I would appreciate it if you would find me a link ...<I> I would appreciate it if you would find me a link of the demands in English.</I><BR/><BR/>Huh! This stuff was surprisingly hard to find. Anyway, for reference: <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://files.osa.ceu.hu/holdings/300/8/3/text/45-4-393.shtml" REL="nofollow">The 21 Demands Put Forward By The Gdansk Interfactory Strike Committee</A><BR/><BR/>(As you can see only first 4 are strictly political in nature, although some claim that 7 of them had political impact. I incorrectly stated there were only 2 political postulates; still the social ones are more numerous any way).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-65484351217460031142007-04-29T23:28:00.000+02:002007-04-29T23:28:00.000+02:00The working class only exists if it is aware that ...The working class only exists if it is aware that it exists in the way that you mean. But it doesn’t. And if the class struggle always existed then why did they only start talking about it in the way you do in the mid 1800s? And why don’t they talk about it today the same way as they did in the 1970s (because they do not)? <BR/><BR/>You are being..what’s that word …oh, yeah – ahistorical. Big crime for a Marxist to be ahistorical. You used to get a few years in a gulag for that one.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-23994535258201195702007-04-29T23:20:00.000+02:002007-04-29T23:20:00.000+02:00No more workers movement, mate. It’s over.How? Has...<I><BR/>No more workers movement, mate. It’s over.</I><BR/><BR/>How? Has the working class disappeared? As long as there is a working class, there will be a workers' movement at varying levels of power and development.<BR/><BR/>Did you miss the defeat of CPE legislation? Have you not noticed the drive for the establishment of a United Socialist Party in Venezuela and Chavez's calls to the workers to "read Trotsky"? What about APPO in Mexico? <BR/><BR/>The defeat of the secular left in the Middle East is of course unfortunate (although it has been making tentative steps towards rebirth in Iraq particularly) but it was simply a temporary defeat in the class struggle. Class struggle doesn't stop unless one of the two, or both classes are destroyed. Now, I think workers still exist.Korakioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593180610210015493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-40557615182076220572007-04-29T23:18:00.000+02:002007-04-29T23:18:00.000+02:00No more workers movement, mate. It’s over.Yup. For...<I>No more workers movement, mate. It’s over.</I><BR/><BR/>Yup. For two reasons. The first one is that there is no working class anymore, because the everyone in the working class is now indirectly also a capitalist, because his retirement money is usually invested on a stock market by his pension fund (or insurance company or whatever). Thus, ironically, maintaining of capitalism is in the working class' best interest. <BR/><BR/>The other one is that the left wing parties have marginalized themselves, because after getting all the possible privileges for workers they forgot about them and started looking after women rights, gay rights, immigrant rights, and recently also animal rights, tree rights and whatever-have-you rights. And while you could build a sizable electorate out of women, immigrants or gays, it becomes more difficult with animals and trees. So they are naturally becoming irrelevant. <BR/><BR/>And in the mean time, workers' rights are being infringed on again, since there is no-one to defend them, because the people that should be are too busy hugging trees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-45392949307008728492007-04-29T22:18:00.000+02:002007-04-29T22:18:00.000+02:00Level of class struggle? In better shape? I reckon...Level of class struggle? In better shape? I reckon we must be living on different planets. <BR/><BR/>Collectively, in the UK, the working class movement finished with the defeat of the miners strike in 1984. By the turn of the 1990s, that old type of proletarian politics was completely finished, not just in UK but pretty much everywhere. That includes the developing world. What were secular Arab nationalist movements (ba’athist types) are now Islamic. The secular left option failed, has nothing to sustain it ideologically elsewhere, and is not coming back.<BR/><BR/>In this part of the world the last victory by the organized working class was Solidarnosc. And then the w/c ate itself. <BR/><BR/>In the west left wing politics has turned into a bunch of tree huggers who keep going on about their carbon footprint. <BR/><BR/>No more workers movement, mate. It’s over.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-35216224186128418182007-04-29T22:03:00.000+02:002007-04-29T22:03:00.000+02:00Uhm sorry, that was me.Uhm sorry, that was me.Korakioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593180610210015493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-3413461883209574542007-04-29T22:02:00.000+02:002007-04-29T22:02:00.000+02:00Opamp, this was a very informative posts. I can't ...Opamp, this was a very informative posts. I can't read Polish however s I would appreciate it if you would find me a link of the demands in English.<BR/><BR/>beet.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I think you are looking at isolated incidents rather than the general trend. Overall, class struggle has been getting more acute. The fall in support for the radical left in France (negligible for LCR) has been largely due to their own mistakes, rather than a lack of support for their ideas amongst the working class. LO has been notoriously sectarian and the CP is generally disoriented as with most Eurocommies that have participated in bourgeois government coalitions. <BR/><BR/>In Italy, the PRC has thousands of members but is now facing internal difficulties because again of its participation in government. Joining coalitions is the death knell for most socialist parties. <BR/><BR/>In Greece, the Communist Party (the only remaining unreformed Communist Party in Europe) has been steadily growing since the 90s.<BR/><BR/>Overall, the left is in a rather better position than it was in the mid nineties. The success of the SSP in 2003 and the growth of regroupment projects, as well as the fact that the Bolivarian process in Venezuela is rapidly developing into a socialist revolution are all ample evidence of that. <BR/><BR/>Any failure to connect with the working class is solely the fault of the left itself as the large bourgeois parties' support is bleeding and the kitsch middle class guilt alternative groups (greens etc) don't seem to be cutting it either.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07348758983071824217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-25873015998015221332007-04-29T22:00:00.000+02:002007-04-29T22:00:00.000+02:00Have you not noticed that right wing parties are o...<I>Have you not noticed that right wing parties are often crooked?</I><BR/><BR/>PO is not a right wing party; it is at most a centrist party.<BR/><BR/>Right wing parties are socially conservative, while PO is socially progressive (concerning abortion, gay rights etc. -- ever seen a right wing politician on a gay march?). <BR/><BR/>Conservatism has always been about decreasing taxes, state influence, simplifying the law and supporting the business, but when the PO people were in power they were raising taxes, regulating new industries, introducing complicated tax code and cooling the economy, thus killing many companies (oh, yes, they were supporting businesses -- these of their fellow crooks, that is). Except that they were doing all that under the UD/UW banner. <BR/><BR/>One of the reasons of the Kaczynskis' and Lepper's rise to power was their promise to investigate the frauds perpetuated in the 1990s under the now-PO politicians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-72094624558732460882007-04-29T20:57:00.000+02:002007-04-29T20:57:00.000+02:00France? Italy? The support for communist candidate...France? Italy? <BR/><BR/>The support for communist candidates has been tumbling since the 1980s and it hasn’t got any better recently.<BR/><BR/>The ‘communist’ left candidates lost support compared to 2002. <BR/><BR/> Workers' Struggle's candidate Arlette Laguiller (1.34%, compared to 5.72% in 2002). Besançenot got only 4.11%, compared to 4.25% in 2002. Communist Marie-George Buffet (1.94%, compared to 3.37% for Robert Hue in 2002),<BR/><BR/>In Italy, the decline is the same, with the split communist party getting less than 10 percent suppprt in elections.<BR/><BR/>The fact is that left wing politics does not have roots in society anymore and the parties that do exist are reformist parties that offer no ideological alternative at all.<BR/><BR/>Game over. <BR/><BR/>Opamp<BR/>Have you not noticed that right wing parties are often crooked?beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-81827123454102182862007-04-29T20:24:00.000+02:002007-04-29T20:24:00.000+02:00The working class in Eastern Europe has no politic...<I>The working class in Eastern Europe has no political culture not because it lacks a vanguard, but because it was "vanguarded" so to speak by Stalinism, which is exactly what you describe.</I><BR/><BR/>The traditional form of the political culture of the working class in have been the trade unions. However, the communists have subverted this concept by mandating the communist unions which were assiociated with the communist state -- and thus effectively unable to defend the workers against the employer, i.e. the state. (To their credit, the communists did in fact very much improve the working conditions and social care for the working class). <BR/><BR/>So the Solidarity was formed as an <I>independent trade union</I>, which would defend the workers from the state. Do you know the original 21 postulates, of the Gdansk strike in 1980? I mean, <A HREF="http://www.polskaludowa.com/opozycja/dokumentacja/21_postulatow.htm" REL="nofollow">read them</A>. 19 of them relate to social matters! The two remaining are: acceptance of free trade unions and guaranteeing freedom of speach. There is nothing there about introducing democracy. Nada, nicht, zilch. (You'd think there is something about it there, would you? After all this is what the contemporary propaganda says!) The original Solidarity was representing the working class interest. <BR/><BR/>What happened next: after the 1980 came the martial law, and Jaruzelski deported many of the Solidarity operatives abroad. Curiously, the people who remained where the ones from the KOR group --- Kuroń, Michnik et.al -- and KOR was after the political things. So the KOR group took over the trade union and turned it into a political party. (There is a conspiracy theory that the KOR people struck a deal with the communists, so they were not deported, only the leaders of the other fraction). And thus the Solidarity under the KOR management brought us the Round Table talks and the free elections in 1989. But this management did not care about the working class, although the working class did not know that yet; people still believed the Solidarity represents them. <BR/><BR/>So, the Solidarity gets to power in 1989 and... breaks up. And then a coalition of post-Solidarity parties forms a government, which introduces Balcerowicz's reform. And that reform screws the working class. Royally. Up the ass. <BR/><BR/>So, the working class has been left without a political represenstation and with a great distrust towards politics that lasts until today. <BR/><BR/><I>The classic rightwing, conservative party in Poland is Civic Platform. </I><BR/><BR/>ROTFLMAO, as they say in the chatrooms. The Civic Platform should be named the Crook Party. <BR/><BR/>You see, when the Balcerowicz reform came, there was a lot of good business to be made. Like, FOREX speculation based on insider information because Balcerowicz devaluated złoty and fixed the exchange rate. Or, buying for X złoty a privatized company which had X złoty in cash reserves. Or, getting Y złoty of credit in bank B, and then buying bank B for Y złoty from the state. Etc. <BR/><BR/>And such swindles were perpetrated mainly by the people who belonged to certain two political parties, which also formed the government at the time. These were named UD and KLD. They have later fused into something called UW, which later broke up into PD, and, wait for it... PO! And, certain stars of the transformation swindle (like <A HREF="http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Lewandowski" REL="nofollow">this guy</A>, who sold to American a modern cellulose factory for <A HREF="http://www.rowp.republika.pl/prywatyzacje/glowna.html" REL="nofollow">142 million USD, and then gave the buyer 142 million USD in tax breaks</A>) are still they high-ranking politicians of the PO.<BR/><BR/>And this is the Civic Platform.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-2151251570251974482007-04-29T18:58:00.000+02:002007-04-29T18:58:00.000+02:00And Konrad - all stuff about spontaneity – ism…van...<I><BR/>And Konrad - all stuff about spontaneity – ism…vanguards ….where have you been, man? It’s finished. Kapooot.</I><BR/><BR/>You must not have been paying much attention to Venezuela lately. And France. And Italy :)Korakioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593180610210015493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-21083323273979733862007-04-29T18:57:00.000+02:002007-04-29T18:57:00.000+02:00Korakersam not using rightwing in an economistic t...Korakers<BR/><I>am not using rightwing in an economistic term.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, but I am cause that is what confuses people when talking about a ‘left/right wing’ Polish political party. Because the language don’t fit here. <BR/><BR/>And ‘collectivism’ is important because, again, this is a specific trait of politics here, different from the west (and so is the excessive individualism that is a reaction to it – again all very Polish.). <BR/><BR/>And Konrad - all stuff about spontaneity – ism…vanguards ….where have you been, man? It’s finished. Kapooot.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-82383468166038129512007-04-29T17:47:00.000+02:002007-04-29T17:47:00.000+02:00Avakian is a funny guy. He is more of a joke than ...Avakian is a funny guy. He is more of a joke than Scargill.<BR/><BR/>As for Lenin, he was very correct on Luxemburg's misplaced internationalism. On matters of organization, they were pretty much arguing over semantics. They were both right and they were both wrong for different reasons, the most important one being the different level of development of the working class in Germany and RussiaKorakioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593180610210015493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-84715265789572733112007-04-29T17:42:00.000+02:002007-04-29T17:42:00.000+02:00BTW, KK, are you aware of what Lenin thought of Lu...BTW, KK, are you aware of what Lenin thought of Luxemburg's theories of spontanaeity, nationalism, etc.?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-67842441481191274102007-04-29T17:39:00.000+02:002007-04-29T17:39:00.000+02:00Komrad K wrote: I suggest you read up on Luxemburg...Komrad K wrote: <I>I suggest you read up on Luxemburg's theories</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks. I enjoyed that. Luxemburg's theories, as you no doubt well know, were always well-recieved in Poland. May I also suggest you read up on Avakian's theories... Celebrate Socialist Albania! Long live the SDKPIL!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com