tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post5579501202711528454..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Russian NGO fights for Polish Katyn massacre victims!beatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-49853245345205538172022-08-29T09:03:40.273+02:002022-08-29T09:03:40.273+02:00k5s61w1u50 a5x95q3s97 w1o61r3l32 h9z62q5s48 t4... <a href="https://seshayt58726.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"><strong>k5s61w1u50</strong></a> a5x95q3s97 <a href="https://tosoo03766.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"><strong>w1o61r3l32</strong></a> h9z62q5s48 <a href="https://mcsteete01983.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"><strong>t4k41h2q01</strong></a> m5x06p8v76mcsheseahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04372270136501857774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-39331479883110750352022-06-10T13:19:45.877+02:002022-06-10T13:19:45.877+02:00over here see here now look at here now anonymou... over here <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/mini-bag-c-157_190_228_233/cheap-cc-patent-leather-mini-classic-flap-a1115-bag-p-1400.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>see here now</strong></a> look at here now <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/mahina-c-157_158_259/high-quality-m55800-louis-vuitton-muria-mahina-leather-black-bag-p-1916.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>anonymous</strong></a> home <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/g-men-bag-c-157_168_197/replica-gucci-aaa-450983-technical-canvas-duffle-p-1353.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>check this site out</strong></a>mcsesahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09086031640219936389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-74075386605552552162011-10-28T09:10:23.160+02:002011-10-28T09:10:23.160+02:00In my opinion everyone must look at it.In my opinion everyone must look at it.consejo comprar yatehttp://yatesspain.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-90378743463435682812007-03-21T10:13:00.000+01:002007-03-21T10:13:00.000+01:00I sat out much of this one, but it was very entert...I sat out much of this one, but it was very entertaining. Good stuff.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-37385217405775642482007-03-21T09:20:00.000+01:002007-03-21T09:20:00.000+01:00Geez said:"But you seem to have jettisoned your or...Geez said:<BR/>"But you seem to have jettisoned your original frame of reference about Arab borders being drawn, not just those of Israel where your focus has now shifted."<BR/><BR/>Well, erm.. As far as straying off topic goes, i think we all have a little - remember the original article, and that little issue with Katyn? - But i agree:<BR/>" And it wouldn't have been established in Palestine without the western powers sticking it there.<BR/><BR/>Call it colonialism or call sticky wicketism, it's still about western dominance in and over the Middle East."<BR/><BR/>Words are a wonderful thing and we can - and indeed have -spend serveral days arguing over what to call different things: genocide vs massacre; imperialism vs colonials vs strategic domination, and the list continues.<BR/>Alas, my attention is now drawn to the most recent topic on Beat's blog: What Poland has gained from Iraq. ... I'm sure we will continue are semantic battles therevarushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-73563746125224518542007-03-20T16:12:00.000+01:002007-03-20T16:12:00.000+01:00Of course there are differences, Varus.But you see...Of course there are differences, Varus.<BR/><BR/>But you seem to have jettisoned your original frame of reference about Arab borders being drawn, not just those of Israel where your focus has now shifted.<BR/><BR/>Most Arabs percieve Israel as a client state of the western powers. Not a colony, to be sure, but acting in tandem with western interests. And it wouldn't have been established in Palestine without the western powers sticking it there.<BR/><BR/>Call it colonialism or call sticky wicketism, it's still about western dominance in and over the Middle East.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-7406614709867096692007-03-20T16:03:00.000+01:002007-03-20T16:03:00.000+01:00Sonia said.. “the original owners of the house wer...Sonia said.. “the original owners of the house were bound to return”<BR/><BR/>There was no legal or logical basis for European Jews to establish the State of Israel. It would represent the equivalent of American Catholics occupying Italy because of a religious connection to the Vatican. Caucasian Europeans who happen to have Judaism as a common religion invaded Palestine. The Zionist movement influenced the British and American governments to cooperate. Both the British and the Americans were warned by their experts that this would result in long-term problems in the region.<BR/><BR/>The result is that the Arab world will never come to terms with the existence of the State of Israel therefore forcing the western counties to support it. This support now amounts to America sending four billion in military aid per year and earning the everlasting hatred of the Arab world.<BR/><BR/>911, the War on Terrorism, Iraq War and Islamic fundamentalism are all directly related to the establishment of the State of Israel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-66801313707492093882007-03-20T14:58:00.000+01:002007-03-20T14:58:00.000+01:00Steppx,I agree that its a lot of semantics, howeve...Steppx,<BR/><BR/>I agree that its a lot of semantics, however, you seem to have taken as red the fact that Iraq is a colony while deciding if it is in fact colonialism: "the western powers making these decisions seems to disregard the desires of the inhabitants of these colonies. Ergo, its colonialism."<BR/>But, I agree with the "structure of domination" and the idea of 'we know best'. Perhaps the client kingdom of the British Raj is a more appropriate synonym. Here, the act was not one of colonising (settlers going out from the mother country) but more one of strategic control. And yes, the interests of the locals were largely ignored.<BR/><BR/>Geez...<BR/><BR/>The Ukraine was absorbed into the Soviet Union as part of the greater Russian domain. Stalin wanted to de-nationalise, so to speak, the Ukrainian national spirit and create a Moscow centric state... The same can not be said of Britain's acts in Palestine. As far as I can recall, no one wanted to make Palestine an integral part of the British domain. This can be contrasted with the Algerian experience, where it was absorbed en mass into 'Greater France' which had painful repercussions when the call for independence came.varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-90787763081006531212007-03-20T13:26:00.000+01:002007-03-20T13:26:00.000+01:00Britain's actions in relation to Palastine were no...<I> Britain's actions in relation to Palastine were not a colonial act, but pragmatism. </I><BR/><BR/>And Stalin's actions in relation to the Ukraine were not a colonial act, but pragmatism?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-91773637751005524302007-03-20T09:21:00.000+01:002007-03-20T09:21:00.000+01:00varus...Actually, in a sense, the UN is often rath...varus...<BR/>Actually, in a sense, the UN is often rather colonialist in its functions....but not per se colonial. That said....the mandate in Iraq should be seen as colonial. We are quibbling about semantics in a way....BUT, the western powers making these decisions seems to disregard the desires of the inhabitants of these colonies. Ergo, its colonialism. Was the mandate the same as the british in Kenya? No....but in a sense its part of the same over-all structure of domination. <BR/>The US and UK continue to think in terms of the white man's burden. One sees it today in Iraq...why are *we* there? The assumptions of power are easily overlooked....but when you say a "a tricky problem" Im tempted to ask "for whom"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-85690069094362561312007-03-20T08:31:00.000+01:002007-03-20T08:31:00.000+01:00Beatroot,Firstly i agree this discussion has gone ...Beatroot,<BR/>Firstly i agree this discussion has gone a bit of tact. However, you said:<BR/>The British had colonial interests there, and I suppose there was the idea of placing Europeans as a way of controlling Palestine.<BR/><BR/>But, apart from Zionists campaigning for a ‘Jewish homeland’ the motivation for creating Israel, for the western powers, was to get rid of the ‘Jewish problem’. <BR/><BR/>Are these two points not a litle conflicting. The second agrees with me that Britain's actions in relation to Palastine were not a colonial act, but pragmatism. As you said: to get rid of the problem. However, the first seems to return to the principle that Britain wished to colonise Palastine. - Is it just me, or are these points at odds?varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-42880214571588645472007-03-20T07:12:00.000+01:002007-03-20T07:12:00.000+01:00That was way too deep (or just plain silly) for me...That was way too deep (or just plain silly) for me to understand. Explain.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-22440974450053061932007-03-20T01:01:00.000+01:002007-03-20T01:01:00.000+01:00Israel was created from the Balfor agreement back ...<I>Israel was created from the Balfor agreement back in First WW times. It was created in a climate of anti-Semitism in Europe.</I><BR/><BR/>'Next year in Jerusalem' was a phrase spoken by Diaspora Jews since the time immemorial. In medieval Europe. In Renaissance Europe. In 19th century Poland. Balfour or no Balfour, anti-semitism or no anti-semitism, Palestinian Arabs were living on borrowed time. Some day, the original owners of the house were bound to return.<BR/><BR/>Blame Vespasian or Hadrian or some other Roman emperor. The chickens finally came home to roost. Now, it's the Palestinian's turn to live in a dispora for the next 2000 years. They drew History's lottery's bad number...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-65621877087674669132007-03-19T22:32:00.000+01:002007-03-19T22:32:00.000+01:00I find this discussion a bit odd. Israel was creat...I find this discussion a bit odd. <BR/><BR/>Israel was created from the Balfor agreement back in First WW times. It was created in a climate of anti-Semitism in Europe. Poland favoured sending all the Jews to Madagascar!<BR/><BR/>The British had colonial interests there, and I suppose there was the idea of placing Europeans as a way of controlling Palestine.<BR/><BR/> But, apart from Zionists campaigning for a ‘Jewish homeland’ the motivation for creating Israel, for the western powers, was to get rid of the ‘Jewish problem’.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-46861003558423115142007-03-19T22:12:00.000+01:002007-03-19T22:12:00.000+01:00Geez said: why do you insist on comparing today's ...Geez said: why do you insist on comparing today's UN with the LofN?<BR/><BR/><BR/>League? What League? I was talking about whether the formation of Isreal out of Palastine was a colonial act or not. I was using the UN as an example of the present power relations (the reality of the day)varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-55363923972679147122007-03-19T16:35:00.000+01:002007-03-19T16:35:00.000+01:00Varus, why do you insist on comparing today's UN w...Varus, why do you insist on comparing today's UN with the LofN?<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but it's like comparing apples and porcupines.<BR/><BR/>Sounds like the British, though, were at least a bit like Stalin in imposing strategic, pragmatic solutions to their problems... At least they didn't indulge in wholesale slaughter, I spoze, at least not to the extent as that perpetrated as a matter of course by Uncle Joe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-83870860398782828762007-03-19T14:00:00.000+01:002007-03-19T14:00:00.000+01:00Steppx,granted the borders were decided by externa...Steppx,<BR/><BR/>granted the borders were decided by external powers, as much to get rid of a problem (Israel/Palestine) as for the benefits of locals. Granted also that this was done by the same powers who operated a colonial system. However, the fact that the principle actors may have in fact been one in the same does not mean that therefore it was colonialism. By the time of the formation of Israel on November 29th 1947,the British colonial system was well and truly on a downward path. Britain's mandate was not a colonial venture, it was a pragmatic solution to a very tricky problem. I accept that Britain and the "western powers" could have handled the situation better, and it smacked of old school imperial arrogance. Alas, hindsight is a wonderful thing!!<BR/><BR/>To give a contemporary example,<BR/><BR/>the UN Security Council is controlled by the permanent five, nothing happens without their approval, or at least refusal to veto. Does this equate to colonialism? No, it is just the reality of power, whether we like it or not. The legacy of colonialism does live on, but it can not be used as 'one size fits all' concept.varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-8397861540359060762007-03-19T02:43:00.000+01:002007-03-19T02:43:00.000+01:00Is that picture of Sonia the same as the pictures ...Is that picture of Sonia the same as the pictures of Sonia on the Sonia website? Not quite as flattering. The pictures on Sonia's blog being less flattering, I mean.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-83189756317120238352007-03-18T23:21:00.000+01:002007-03-18T23:21:00.000+01:00Did the Arab states decide upon their borders?No, ...Did the Arab states decide upon their borders?<BR/><BR/>No, the European states, controllilng the LofN, decided for the Arabs. And benefited from the decision in multiple ways. <BR/><BR/>That's colonialism.<BR/><BR/>I do not think that the African and Arab states have such a bad deal in the current UN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-5926511305183745742007-03-18T20:59:00.000+01:002007-03-18T20:59:00.000+01:00every one of your readers that I allegedly 'steal'...<I>every one of your readers that I allegedly 'steal', there are certainly at least two or three who will visit your site in return. </I><BR/><BR/>It's not a matter of 'stealing' it's a matter of keeping debates where they start. <BR/><BR/>And not much comes my way from your blog (different type of reader, these days, I think).beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-75160938164756999602007-03-18T20:54:00.000+01:002007-03-18T20:54:00.000+01:00Steppx,as far as nit picking goes i was just wanti...Steppx,<BR/><BR/>as far as nit picking goes i was just wanting to clarify that the Great Game is pertinant to Afhanistan and its present perdicament, but can't be used as a general reule of thum for explaining the current Iraqi perdicament.<BR/><BR/>As for British mandate in Palastine, this was not colonialism. The UK was given this as a realisation of them being a 'Great Power' and having the ability to administer it. Yes, this was a position (great power status) that they arived at as much due to colonial history as anything else, but wasn't in itself colonialism.varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-22188436956261755872007-03-18T17:17:00.000+01:002007-03-18T17:17:00.000+01:00Beatroot,if you start a debate here then you shoul...Beatroot,<BR/><BR/><I>if you start a debate here then you should finish it here. And stop this constant attempt to lure people from this blog to your grubby tits and arses blog. If that is the only way you can get readers who are not just sado wankers then I pity you</I><BR/><BR/>The wonderful thing about the Internet in general (and blogging in particular) is how INTERACTIVE it is, and how it allows ideas to FREELY circulate from one site to another. There is no copyright protection on blogging. I thought that Steppx arguments were an interesting example of a certain political pathology, and I wanted to debate that on my blog in order to share it with my readers and commenters. <BR/><BR/>You might abhor this inerative cross-pollination, but I revel in it. And overall, for every one of your readers that I allegedly 'steal', there are certainly at least two or three who will visit your site in return. This is not a zero-sum game, but a win-win situation for both sides...soniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938174968325568608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-32429833063610969632007-03-18T14:59:00.001+01:002007-03-18T14:59:00.001+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-31445176135165217412007-03-18T14:59:00.000+01:002007-03-18T14:59:00.000+01:00Steppx,I have looked at your source and it seems n...Steppx,<BR/><BR/>I have looked at your source and it seems not to contradict what i said. Russia and Britain were involved in Iraq/Iran border issues, but not as part of the Great Game:<BR/>"The complete distaste for compromise shown by the Persians and Ottomans led an exasperated and impatient British Foreign Secretary, Lord Palmerston, to comment in 1851 that "the boundary line between Turkey and Persia can never be finally settled except by an arbitrary decision on the part of Great Britain and Russia".<BR/><BR/>This was not a reult of rivary between Britain and Russia or any other. Britain and Russia used their weight to settle a matter that threatened regional security. This was different to the great game.<BR/><BR/>I stick by my original asertion that the ottaman empires and its collapse decided the borders of Iraq.varushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607642372495291037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-19502338703116543962007-03-18T14:30:00.000+01:002007-03-18T14:30:00.000+01:00varus/.....try to find sources more sophisticated ...varus/.....try to find sources more sophisticated than Wikipedia.<BR/>Here is a short over-view for you.<BR/>http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/Leafcopy/160-5.htm<BR/>Clearly, the original great game....the term came into play a bit later...was England and Tsarist Russia...but quickly extended over the next 100 years to lots of other folks.<BR/><BR/>The germane point is that the colonial period shaped the borders of the entire region. The great powers of Imperialism carved up the area to suit their needs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com