tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post497537009203118583..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Are Poles today victims of their history?beatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-14844717571187082942007-04-12T23:19:00.000+02:002007-04-12T23:19:00.000+02:00Mike: if Ms Dynamite had been making records in th...Mike: if Ms Dynamite had been making records in the 1960s then she would be singing Curtis Mayfield songs like "Get on up'....meaning 'change your situation'...instead she is signing: ' Get on your slave to history...'beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-8226992818723615852007-04-12T23:04:00.000+02:002007-04-12T23:04:00.000+02:00I agree with your general point, I just think this...I agree with your general point, I just think this is not a good example as other factors seem more important than victim culture, which is usually about relieving _oneself_ from responsibility.<BR/>Ms Dynamite seems to be searching for psychological protection against the fact that her father was a f*ckwad. Not the same thing at all.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-82685625370820734092007-04-12T20:15:00.000+02:002007-04-12T20:15:00.000+02:00It’s more than Thanatos, Mike. British culture and...It’s more than Thanatos, Mike. <BR/><BR/>British culture and US culture, is now structured around the ‘victim’. We have competing victimization. That’s a very passive way to confront oppression or whatever. It’s about not taking control and trying to influence events. Malcomn X didn’t think of himself as a victim…beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-39629914141383575222007-04-12T19:18:00.000+02:002007-04-12T19:18:00.000+02:00"What woman?""black British hip-hop singer Ms Dyna..."What woman?"<BR/><BR/>"black British hip-hop singer Ms Dynamite – whose father left her when she was 11 years old"michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-84336231132174925092007-04-12T16:26:00.000+02:002007-04-12T16:26:00.000+02:00What woman?What woman?beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-52267622354131344322007-04-12T00:04:00.000+02:002007-04-12T00:04:00.000+02:00beat, I'm amazed at how you missed the forest for ...beat, I'm amazed at how you missed the forest for the trees (warning: sidewalk psychoanalysis ahead).<BR/><BR/>The unhappy woman you quoted was trying to rationalize away her father's rejection of her.<BR/><BR/>The obvious explanations for this rejection like a) he didn't care about her b) he cared about her but cared about being free of her more are horrifically painful for a child or adolescent and that pain isn't chased away by rational theories of self-actualization.<BR/><BR/>Of course she wants to shift blame away from herself (the defenseless abandoned child almost always blames themself) and away from her father (towards whom she still has a child's defensive urges) to a historical scapegoat. <BR/><BR/>That scenario says nothing about the turbulent nexus of culture/history/personal-choices.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-30538567381719050982007-04-11T20:59:00.000+02:002007-04-11T20:59:00.000+02:00why don't you just have sex with your buddy simon ...why don't you just have sex with your buddy simon mol get aids and dieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-61033761908817642722007-04-11T19:15:00.000+02:002007-04-11T19:15:00.000+02:00damoBut you would rarely come across a Haitian who...damo<BR/><I>But you would rarely come across a Haitian who would engage in the blame game </I><BR/><BR/>Because they were the first slaves to successfully free themselves through their own struggle. That's one aspect that has been lost in all this. That slaves struggled on their own behalf and were not passive victims in need of white support.<BR/><BR/>and that might be a lesson for those who feel a slave to their pasts today.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-72916203997180489112007-04-11T01:26:00.000+02:002007-04-11T01:26:00.000+02:00Interesting discussion and good contributions. Tha...Interesting discussion and good contributions. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for The Black Donnelly's reference Geez.<BR/><BR/>Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, as you may well know, has suggested his church should reflect on how to pay reparations for their role in the slave trade.<BR/>What form the compensation would take has not been suggested but surely investing some additional resources (albeit without strings attached) in deprived areas of England with ethnic minorities would be a welcome move. Or, maybe the focus should shift away from the descendants of slaves to the current victims of slavery and trafficking in Britain and elsewhere - women caught in prostitution, labourers forced to work in crap conditions, etc. Race and skin colour is not the issue here, but rather the violation of anybody's human rights.<BR/><BR/>William;s statement comes after the Anglican church's divestment from stock in companies like Caterpillar, due to their role in constructing the Israeli Apartheid wall. <BR/><BR/>6 years ago I worked as a volunteer in Haiti, a country that has seriously suffered from the consequences of the Frencj colonisation and subsequent native dictators, coups, etc.<BR/>Aristide (still enjoys popular support)was partly ousted from Haiti for his demands that $21 billion in reparations be paid back by France for their colonisation and theft of Haiti's natural resources, etc.<BR/><BR/>The economic and human rights hangover from Haiti's independance struggle, which was the first free slave republic(1804), most certainly had an impact on it's ability to maintain independance from internal and external coups over the following two centuries and to build a sustainable and fair economy helping citizens escape the poverty they have ever since found themselves trapped in. But of course, more contemporary events, like the U.S. and France witholding U.N. aid in 2000, which amounted to $500 million, due to their disagreements with how the elections were run (or their results should I say) led to a deepening political crisis for Arisitide and a graver economic crisis for ordinary Haitians. The game is not an either/or, but rather a both/and - fuck ups and greed by leaders after independance ensured Haitians would not escape poverty. <BR/>But you would rarely come across a Haitian who would engage in the blame game - they were too focussed on securing food, water, work and other basic stuff to enter the mourning and blame game.<BR/><BR/>Sach's surprisingly had this to say on the eve Aristide was toppled:<BR/><BR/> <I>Haiti is ablaze. President Jean-Bertrand Aristide is widely blamed, and he may be toppled soon. Almost nobody, however, understands that today's chaos was made in Washington-deliberately, cynically, and steadfastly. History will bear this out. In the meantime, political, social, and economic chaos will deepen, and Haiti's impoverished people will suffer.</I><BR/><BR/>Interestingly, I met the mulatto descendants of Poles and Haitians when I spent time volunteering there in 2001. The Poles had been brought by the French to quell the uprisings, but some changed sides (about 120 out of 5,200) and fought with the natives fighting for their freedom from oppression. Their role seems to be somewhat exaggerated though - instead of torturing prisoners like the French did, they would just kill them outright! <BR/><BR/>http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/bookreviews/pachonski.htm<BR/><BR/>Ooops, I've strayed........Damien Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15814470741668910052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-22133773571827339892007-04-10T16:24:00.000+02:002007-04-10T16:24:00.000+02:00albert, use your theories of eugenics to explain w...albert, <BR/><BR/>use your theories of eugenics to explain why the most dynamic city in the country (by many metrics) is Wrocław whos current inhabitanta almost all trace their ancestory to around Lwów (now Lviv) in (now) Ukrained.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-9352306987654077632007-04-10T00:31:00.000+02:002007-04-10T00:31:00.000+02:00So, go on then. Let's resurect that old chestnut: ...So, go on then. Let's resurect that old chestnut: Eugentics. How is this relevant to what we are talking about...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-22994948079855591492007-04-10T00:05:00.000+02:002007-04-10T00:05:00.000+02:00Oooh... that unmistaken glib condescension - how ...Oooh... that unmistaken glib condescension - how delightfully British of you! But seriously Beetroot, your patronizing tone was very disappointing indeed. Didn’t expect that kind of tone (..and no substance) from you - I thought your objective was to stimulate exchange of variety of ideas and viewpoints rather than dismissing the ones you don’t consider worthy.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08630147794309755529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-390338275726406612007-04-06T22:27:00.000+02:002007-04-06T22:27:00.000+02:00beatroot, is it "daft" because it lacks merit or b...<I>beatroot, is it "daft" because it lacks merit or because it would take you outside of your comfort zone to consider an argument based in eugenics? </I><BR/><BR/>Eugenics? Oh, dear. <BR/><BR/>It would not take me out of my comfort zone at all. It's just that Eugenics brief flirt with the scientific limelight ended many decades ago. <BR/><BR/>So I don't even thinks worth debating.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-55111659846939276372007-04-06T21:57:00.000+02:002007-04-06T21:57:00.000+02:00beatroot, is it "daft" because it lacks merit or b...beatroot, is it "daft" because it lacks merit or because it would take you outside of your comfort zone to consider an argument based in eugenics? <BR/>Consider this: It's a fact that you will find more blue-eyed blondes in Sweden than in Uganda. If it's ok to say that we may share some physical similarities due to interbreeding within certain population, why is it not ok to say that perhaps the genetics are also responsible for amplifying certain personality traits, talents, predispositions, etc.?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08630147794309755529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-72841623307899988022007-04-06T21:16:00.000+02:002007-04-06T21:16:00.000+02:00"In case of more orderly and cleaner cities in the..."In case of more orderly and cleaner cities in the western part of Poland"<BR/><BR/>Poznan is in no way cleaner or more orderly than Warsaw (maybe once, but no more).<BR/>Wrocław IMO is at present cleaner and better run than Poznań and is ethnically one of the most eastern of all Polish cities as I believe the majority of the population traces their descent to what's now Ukraine.<BR/><BR/>In Poland, a lot depends on who's in charge. For most of the 90's the mayor of Poznań was a technocratic policy wonk who got a lot done (and set a good example followed by those lower in the power structure).<BR/><BR/>For the last 8 or so years, the mayor has been a career politician of no special skills besides winning elections (again setting a similar example down the power chain).michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-7020747036852800922007-04-06T19:45:00.000+02:002007-04-06T19:45:00.000+02:00That's not un-PC, that's just daft as a brush...That's not un-PC, that's just daft as a brush...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-31336124316843859882007-04-06T19:21:00.000+02:002007-04-06T19:21:00.000+02:00This is really a very interesting discussion but I...This is really a very interesting discussion but I’m afraid it misses to recognize that Poles may be the way they are because of what they are (i.e. Polish) and not because of what they as a nation have been through. As un-PC as it may sound, there is a reason why national stereotypes exist. The Blacks do make great athletes, Irish do like their drink, Latinos can indeed dance, Italians are typically loud and overly dramatic, and Germans are generally anal and follow rules and Poles.. well, Poles tend to bitch, drink, complain about ‘hamstwo’, not being able to get along, and blame others for their national misfortunes. Spice it up with hubris and national megalomania and you have your explanation as to why Poland is (and has been…) the way it is. In case of more orderly and cleaner cities in the western part of Poland, they may be expression of certain amount of intermixing with non-Polish populations rather than the cultural influence of the former occupying powers. <BR/><BR/>Here is my solution: Poles should interbreed with other nations (which at the current rate of immigration will happen anyway…) to dilute the undesirable traits. Besides its practical effect it also happens to be quite pleasurable way of engineering social changes ;) <BR/><BR/>Caveat: Polish/Irish interbreeding may cause increase in violence and alcohol consumption as well as uncontrollable population explosion…Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08630147794309755529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-74245237834469536912007-04-06T16:43:00.000+02:002007-04-06T16:43:00.000+02:00So how do you re-educate an entire society to over...So how do you re-educate an entire society to overcome such a clearly identifiable flaw?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-49683538449613684632007-04-06T14:43:00.000+02:002007-04-06T14:43:00.000+02:00Yup. That's exactly correct. And that has been a p...<I>Yup. That's exactly correct. And that has been a problem ever since 1918 and after the POlish 'state' didn't exsist for over a century.</I><BR/><BR/>It was a a problem much earlier. The partitions were the result of gross mismanagement during the last part of the First Republic era. This mismanagement stemmed from the lack of ability of forming the consensus. <BR/><BR/>What happened was that pre-partitions Poland gradually evolved from monarchy towards democracy (i.e. the king was democratically elected by the parliament, the parlliament had strong veto power over his decisions, and we even had the equivalent of <I>habeas corpus</I>. Of course all of that was limited only to the nobility, but then our nobility comprised 15% or so of inhabitants, compared o about 1% in Western countries). The democracized system however has turned out to be completely ineffective and has essentially voted (or argued) the coutry out of existence. <BR/><BR/>So the lack of consensus is not caused by the partitions; it has caused the partitions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-63612602562619574882007-04-06T09:37:00.000+02:002007-04-06T09:37:00.000+02:00Perhaps we should be discussing why Polish society...<I>Perhaps we should be discussing why Polish society is so ineffective at forming consensus and moving forward in the simplest matters.</I><BR/><BR/>Yup. That's exactly correct. And that has been a problem ever since 1918 and after the POlish 'state' didn't exsist for over a century. <BR/><BR/>That is where history informs the present. Poles relationship to the state and to each other is what we should be looking at...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-38412045484738813902007-04-06T05:47:00.000+02:002007-04-06T05:47:00.000+02:00Although I do not believe that today’s Poland is t...Although I do not believe that today’s Poland is that heavily influenced by the old partitions it remains a small component of influence in the culture. We may be looking at the problem from the wrong angle.<BR/><BR/>Opamp said: “has more to do with our inherent inability to sort things out”<BR/><BR/>We can’t blame others or past history for a societal problems that prevent effective governance. Perhaps we should be discussing why Polish society is so ineffective at forming consensus and moving forward in the simplest matters. The most successful democracies seem to have mastered the art of consensus. What are the factors in Polish society that make forming consensus so difficult?<BR/><BR/>It seems in a country that has the technical ability and resources to solve all sorts of problems we are missing something in our culture that’s needed to bring everything to-gether.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-77148147880443584882007-04-05T23:34:00.000+02:002007-04-05T23:34:00.000+02:00My experience: if you talk to a Pole, be sure it w...My experience: if you talk to a Pole, be sure it won't take long and s/he will begin to yammer. Sensibilized by similar experiences in Sicily, Sardinia and Virginia (US), I avoid, for heaven's sake, to join in yammering. (For a foreigner, it would be a faux pas.)<BR/><BR/>So I listen for a while and then try to convince my interlocutor that things, in reality, aren't such bad in Poland. "Well," I hear, "but look at that and that ..." So the next step of my strategy is to enthuse about the inherent possibilities of the country, her natural riches, wonderful people, and beautiful landscape. "Well, but we're not used to make use of it ... " (then, as a rule, the culprits are listed: the partition powers, the German occupation, and the Communist regime thereafter). <BR/><BR/>I further try to encourage. I remember my interlocutor that Polish immigrants built up the Ruhr industrial region in Germany, or how successful Poles were and are in the US, that Poles "can make it," if they want. "Well," I use to hear then, "if there is some strong hand that leads us ... but, y'know, we always revolted against every ruler, that's our tradition, our history ... ". <BR/><BR/>And I'm afraid that today's politics, in general and especially in education, which focus on looking back into history instead of "fixing the shit" of today (thanks, opamp!) and looking forwards, only foster these widespread attitudes, a mixture of self-pity and - oh, how convenient! - evasion of responsibility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-13326498299135649122007-04-05T22:38:00.000+02:002007-04-05T22:38:00.000+02:00BR:our inherent inability to sort things out I hea...BR:<BR/><BR/><I>our inherent inability to sort things out <BR/><BR/>I hear this as an excuse for all sorts of things...<BR/><BR/>But what does it mean?</I><BR/><BR/>Messed up priorities. We should be fixing the shit instead of debating which occupant should be blamed for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-62304632907960666432007-04-05T21:17:00.000+02:002007-04-05T21:17:00.000+02:00I can’t remember if it was Gramsci or another of t...I can’t remember if it was Gramsci or another of those ‘cultural Marxists’ who wrote about three different modes of thought – ideologies. <BR/><BR/>Progressive (Marxist, of course) dominant, and ‘residual’. <BR/><BR/>Nationalism comes under ‘residual’. And of course in certain contemporary situations residual cultures, like Romania and Poland is full of, play a role. More so in our part of the world where these residues have not been allowed to be played out. <BR/><BR/>But it’s the same in Iraq. There the old pre-colonial Iraq constructions have come back. But only because of contemporary events – like moron British and American governments invading the place and then treating the people like three distinct, historical groups: Shia, Sunni and Kurd. <BR/> <BR/>History is bunk.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-48927210945448121782007-04-05T21:02:00.000+02:002007-04-05T21:02:00.000+02:00Of course not "determined", but perceived as such....Of course not "determined", but perceived as such. Part of it is still the old and romantic 19th century type, part of it (very close to the 30's) - is not. And it won't deal with contemporary situations and problems. See Hungary for instance. I <BR/>wouldn't underestimate it. What you write about, the whole package comes with the bottled up glory.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.com