tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post746927686280826928..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Council of Europe nails Kwasniewski and WSI as CIA stooges?beatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-59542511985970735512007-06-15T22:27:00.000+02:002007-06-15T22:27:00.000+02:00Maybe, but at least there was an alternative....th...Maybe, but at least there was an alternative....that is important...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-17077607061383515082007-06-15T21:42:00.000+02:002007-06-15T21:42:00.000+02:00Yeah, tis mighty bleak, insofar as political movem...Yeah, tis mighty bleak, insofar as political movements go.<BR/><BR/>Where did all the passion go?<BR/><BR/>But methinks that it oftimes and on the whole did more bad than good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-55024738617751605612007-06-15T20:00:00.000+02:002007-06-15T20:00:00.000+02:00:-)))Geez, I remember the communitarianism thing a...:-)))<BR/>Geez, I remember the communitarianism thing and it led into the Clinton/Blair Third Way thing. And it went nowhere. <BR/>ot<BR/>Can we guess why it went nowhere? Because this was an invention of think tanks, n real social movements. <BR/><BR/>I will give you an example. I was a member of the Labour Party for many years. On my membership card it had a quote from the ‘Clause Four’ of the party constitution. That said that the aim of the party was to ‘collectively own, by hand and by brain, the production, distribution, and exchange of the nations wealth’. <BR/><BR/>In other words, socialism. <BR/><BR/>Now that quote might have been written by Sidney Webb and other intellectuals (the founders of the LSE university) but it was an expression of a real social movement at the time (1920s) from collectivities in the UK. <BR/><BR/>Tony Blair decided to get rid of Clause Four. <BR/><BR/>But what to replace it with? He had meetings, he set up think tanks, etc. But finding a consensus to what should replace the icon of the socialist movement in Britain (when the socialist movement was no more) he found tricky. So, about 24 hours before he had to announce the new Clause to the Party Congress, he scribbled something on the back of an envelope. I can’t actually remember what it was but it was something about ‘equal opportunities and responsibilities for all…’ and other communitarian stuff. <BR/><BR/>The Labour Party voted for it, but it meant nothing because what Blair was trying to replace – something that came from a real social movement that had roots in society – was substituted by something that Blair wrote on the back on an envelope, in his living room. <BR/><BR/>Can you see what I am getting at?beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-8689648523278644332007-06-15T19:58:00.000+02:002007-06-15T19:58:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-39084914430189673082007-06-15T14:28:00.000+02:002007-06-15T14:28:00.000+02:00Hilarious! What next? Right in the thick of thing...Hilarious! What next? Right in the thick of things! An Alaskan anti-communitarian "think tank":<BR/><BR/>http://nord.twu.net/acl/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-72574105809753492792007-06-15T14:24:00.000+02:002007-06-15T14:24:00.000+02:00A few years back, or decades(?) in the US at least...A few years back, or decades(?) in the US at least, communitarianism was "the thang" at least in some intellectual circles.<BR/><BR/>There's quite an interesting bit on it on Wikipedia (never would have looked there if it wasn't for this conversation so thanks).<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communitarianism<BR/><BR/>Includes this snippet on Libertarianism:<BR/><BR/>"Communitarianism and libertarianism emphasize different values and concerns. Libertarianism is an individualist philosophy, with a strong focus on the rights of citizens in a democracy. Communitarians believe that there is too much focus on these concerns, arguing that "the exclusive pursuit of private interest erodes the network of social environments on which we all depend, and is destructive to our shared experiment in democratic self-government" [1]. They believe that rights must be accompanied by social responsibility and a maintenance of the institutions of civil society if these rights are to be preserved, but libertarians believe that government actions to promote these ends actually result in a loss of individual liberty. In addition, libertarians reject communitarian attempts to promote character education and faith-based initiatives, arguing that government has no business engaging in what they see as social engineering."<BR/><BR/>I've read, struggled through and liked the Alasdair MacIntyre Reader(a collection of seminal essays by the Catholic philosopher now at Notre Dame)and his earlier _Marxism and Christianity_ and also some stuff by Amitai Etzioni.<BR/><BR/>Worth checking out although I don't know what it all pans out to in the real world. Don't know if its all the rage it used to be or if it ever amounted to anything more than intellectual jazzing (I made that word up coz I didn't want to consign it to intellectual masturbation).<BR/><BR/>Watched Hotel Rwanda last night. So much for philosophy and politrix.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-79423045823844735162007-06-15T04:54:00.000+02:002007-06-15T04:54:00.000+02:00I think being members of meaningful communities is...I think being members of meaningful communities is Essentials for all individuals. Religion has certainly played that role, but again it is a declining force. The suicide bomber shows how atomized (literally) these new religious crazies are. That’s nothing to do with religion. <BR/><BR/>Lack of social solidarity is the problem of our age. How to get it back? Don’t know.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-58501398659456241062007-06-14T20:38:00.000+02:002007-06-14T20:38:00.000+02:00Just becoz the old ideologies are outmoded doesn't...Just becoz the old ideologies are outmoded doesn't mean that ideology has ended.<BR/><BR/>In the US (and let's face it, throughout the world), certain ideologues, ie. the neo-cons, still hold hegemonic sway although it looks like this is changing, for better or for worse. Ultimately, though, it's still politics that will make this determination. One ideology will win out over the other(s).<BR/><BR/>Also, it seems that you're saying that people are becoming more and more individualistic and there ain't much place in the world for social, class, cultural solidarities anymore. I'm not clear if you think that's good or bad.<BR/><BR/>And where has has any counter-mainline culture solidarity existed in the past (you mentioned trade unions etc but neglected Catholic groups of all sorts -- in the US they often complimented and fused with e.o.), or even now in some places?<BR/><BR/>What can be done to resurrect, revitalize, or refashion these alternative solidarities? Or create 'em anew? And aren't solidarities of these sorts antithetical to libertarian individualism.<BR/><BR/>I'm just rambling (I've given up on sustained thought a long time ago) but there are some critical things in there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-64601803408159061252007-06-14T19:50:00.000+02:002007-06-14T19:50:00.000+02:00I've always found pronouncements about "the end of...I've always found pronouncements about "the end of ideology," in my daze starting with Daniel Bell, to be wanting of any substantive validation.<BR/><BR/>That’s a fair comment in that ‘end of ideology’ was first coined by Bell – and a lot of other writers in the 1950s. <BR/><BR/>But I am not saying what Bell was. <BR/><BR/>If I remember right, Bell’s was ‘convergence’ thesis. It was about how technological and industrial advances were making communist and capitalist societies more and more similar. And this accounted for the lack of political choices in American life – and the rest of the western world. <BR/><BR/>Now I do not know where to begin with that – but the idea of a duality between Russia and the US – communism/capitalism simply was not correct. They were not opposites. <BR/><BR/>It also leaves out the small fact that though the centre in the UK, for instance, had a Butskle-ite pact – meaning strong welfare state plus free ish market – there was still surrounding it a labour movement, with all the trade union institutions that sustained it: there was also real old ‘elites’, institutions like well established 'old boy networks', the family (nuclear by that time) labour clubs, a jingoistic nationalism, and lots of other things that created different types of various social solidarity: etc. <BR/><BR/>All those things have gone. Political ideology has gone. That was not the same as in Bell’s day. He saw something, but it was too early to get a focus on what it was.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-2387851761963594712007-06-14T19:44:00.000+02:002007-06-14T19:44:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-49529823443203462372007-06-14T18:03:00.000+02:002007-06-14T18:03:00.000+02:00So I would like to see free market social conserva...<I>So I would like to see free market social conservatives, v libertarians v communists v social democrats ...<BR/><BR/>I would like to see real political alternatives. The ‘end of ideology’ actually did happen. At the moment we have managerial politics. I would to see political parties that have a real vision of the future</I><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>So in Polan, all parties are "stuck" and unable to move "forward"?<BR/><BR/>Seems to me that each party in Poland has a different ideological perspective on what constitutes "forward." Just like everywhere else. I've always found pronouncements about "the end of ideology," in my daze starting with Daniel Bell, to be wanting of any substantive validation. <BR/><BR/>What do you mean by "real political alternatives"? Where do these exist? And how is a nation's collective experience changed? And changed to what?<BR/><BR/>And the real and relative impact of League of Polish Families and Radio Maryja, istm, are exaggerated and even created by the mainline media.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-36047172586380354522007-06-14T16:51:00.000+02:002007-06-14T16:51:00.000+02:00Otherwise, too, it seems that Poland for BR consti...<I>Otherwise, too, it seems that Poland for BR constitutes something in the way of an ideal politrix (minus the religious extremism).</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmmm….not sure about that. The religious extremism bit is a product of the failure of traditional political ways forward. For instance, the left is nowhere in Poland. It won’t ever be, either. One because the Left is associated with the ex-communists, but also because the old socialist nationalize everything is finished in Europe. <BR/><BR/>And in Poland as much as anywhere, politics is not seen as a real way of changing people’s collective experience. There no utopias or idealists or radical alternatives to the status quo.<BR/><BR/>Enter, stage right, Roman Giertych and Radio Maryja, with their msssages from the past.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07942766428042286156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-6124973948508694322007-06-14T14:59:00.000+02:002007-06-14T14:59:00.000+02:00Ah, some good, reasonable discussion. Took a whil...Ah, some good, reasonable discussion. Took a while, but here we are.<BR/><BR/>Frank's book is very important. And while I don't know all that much about Europe, my guess is that certain aspects of Frank's thesis are in many ways applicable there, too.<BR/><BR/>And BR, it sounds to me from what you've described above that Polish politrix approximate your ideal.<BR/><BR/>Frank looks at how in Kansas, a very populist/progressive (left) state at least through the 1940s, came under the hegemonic sway of the Republican party by its manipulative use of cultural issues like abortion, gays, the media, street crime, government excesses, etc. <BR/><BR/>Well, maybe these issues really do resonate in such a way with working class folks that the Democrats need to really take notice.<BR/><BR/>And I don't think its so much a matter of working class folks being dumbasses. Tis true more so the leaders of the Democratic Party.<BR/><BR/>Funny thing is that Ron Paul, formerly a Libertarian Party candidate for prez is now raising quite the ruckus as a presidential candidate in the Republican Party. He's pro-life, anti-war, and a Reaganite fiscal type. But he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell, so go figure. I'd vote for him if it wasn't for his economic attitudes and proposed policies.<BR/><BR/>Otherwise, too, it seems that Poland for BR constitutes something in the way of an ideal politrix (minus the religious extremism). <BR/><BR/>Well, you ain't gonna get rid of the religion in Poland. It's changing to be sure in some ways for the worse and some ways for the better. Damien, please get going with that Warsaw branch of the Catholic Worker!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-34197952344862577842007-06-13T21:28:00.000+02:002007-06-13T21:28:00.000+02:00I will try to answer that. Try. Ok. So I would lik...I will try to answer that. Try. <BR/><BR/>Ok. So I would like to see free market social conservatives, v libertarians v communists v social democrats v …..problem is, any kind of political alternative to the status quo has gone. And into that gap stuff like religious extremism has taken its place. Not that surprising really. <BR/><BR/>I would like to see real political alternatives. The ‘end of ideology’ actually did happen. At the moment we have managerial politics. I would to see political parties that have a real vision of the future. At the moment the only time the future is mentioned is in apocalyptic terms, of doom and global warming so bad that it will fry your balls off.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-81098924194224026442007-06-13T20:44:00.000+02:002007-06-13T20:44:00.000+02:00Beatroot said “a culture that lacks any kind of id...Beatroot said “a culture that lacks any kind of ideological choices” <BR/><BR/>What do you mean by ideological choices? For instances what kind of political parties are you hoping to see in the “ideal” political dynamic?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-51832044429390349832007-06-13T18:53:00.000+02:002007-06-13T18:53:00.000+02:00I don't think you can blame the average Joe for a ...I don't think you can blame the average Joe for a culture that lacks any kind of ideological choices. That kind of vacuusness comes from the very top.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-40883834116890020782007-06-13T18:43:00.000+02:002007-06-13T18:43:00.000+02:00Oh c'mon! They are the lickspittles of the dimwitt...<I> Oh c'mon! They are the lickspittles of the dimwitted monkeyman. That makes them even worse. And throw Kaczynski in there, too.</I><BR/><BR/>OK, OK, point taken. I agree about Blair and Kaczynski - I think I want to reserve judgement in the case of Sarkozy.<BR/><BR/>As for the "average joe" and his economic and political self-awareness, I found Thomas Frank's "What's the matter with Kansas?" rather persuasive. It's exactly about this problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-36285301305793336952007-06-13T18:34:00.000+02:002007-06-13T18:34:00.000+02:00just watch what will happen in France, if Sarkozy ...<I>just watch what will happen in France, if Sarkozy tries to dismantle the social state.</I><BR/><BR/>You may be right but then again…<BR/><BR/>The French have just voted in the first round for Sarkozy’s party. They know what they are gonna get. <BR/><BR/>Many think that the unions will stop any reforms. But what folk forget is that union membership in France is just 11 percent – that’s pone of the lowest in Europe.<BR/><BR/>And I think you under estimate the decline of political choice in Europe. Look at UK. No difference between the parties at all. <BR/><BR/>There was little choice in the recent French election, even. Yes, Sarkozy is a reformer, more so that that Royal (the ‘socialist’ candidate was actually the more conservative – very 2007). But Sarkozy is not a classic rightwinger. During the campaign, he went so far as to associate himself with the legendary socialist leader, Jean Jaures. He also attacked ‘hooligan’ CEOs and – just like Royal – he criticised the European Central Bank for its Euro fort policy. Anticipating his 6 May speech, he declared on 14 January 2007, the day of his nomination as presidential candidate for the UMP, his intention to fight for the interests of ‘the France that suffers….’<BR/><BR/>He is a populist, taking bits from everywhere. Don’t think that France is the last bastion of left right political choice, because it ain’t. That kind of politics is finished.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-2301238442912107172007-06-13T18:26:00.000+02:002007-06-13T18:26:00.000+02:00Comapred to the smirking chimp, they are truly sup...Comapred to the smirking chimp, they are truly superior. <BR/><BR/><><<BR/><BR/>Oh c'mon! They are the lickspittles of the dimwitted monkeyman. That makes them even worse. And throw Kaczynski in there, too. <BR/><BR/>I also think you overestimate the extent to which "the average joe" doesn't realize he's getting screwed. The problem is that too many such such realize it only too well and consquently refuse to ch choose between the only two realistic alternatives (however slight those alternatives might be).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-11367623551770298302007-06-13T17:03:00.000+02:002007-06-13T17:03:00.000+02:00Comapred to the smirking chimp, they are truly sup...Comapred to the smirking chimp, they are truly superior. But that's beside the point. The point I was trying to make is that there is no social-democratic party in the US. It's really difficult to find a major party in Europe, which is so far to the right as the Democrats. Maybe UK Tories under Thatcher would fit the bill. <BR/>And parties like the Republicans are just a far-right margin. <BR/> In the US, the simple Joe doesn't even realise that both major parties simply screw him. And he doesn't realise <BR/>it, because he's a dumbass (in addition to being brain-washed by "the greatest country on Earth"-stuff from birth onwards).<BR/><BR/> Anyway, just watch what will happen in France, if Sarkozy tries to dismantle the social state. The French practiced their street politics since 1789 and they are pretty much champions at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-69736418253762271952007-06-13T16:54:00.000+02:002007-06-13T16:54:00.000+02:00Blair, Sarkozy, etc. Truly superior. Well, exactly...<I>Blair, Sarkozy, etc. Truly superior. </I><BR/><BR/>Well, exactly. I don;t think there is much point in being continentalist about the decline of politics. It's a global thing...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-69938310237652025222007-06-13T15:12:00.000+02:002007-06-13T15:12:00.000+02:00That's why you guys vote in Blair, Sarkozy, etc. T...That's why you guys vote in Blair, Sarkozy, etc. Truly superior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-67546047571566130252007-06-13T12:14:00.000+02:002007-06-13T12:14:00.000+02:00Well, whose supporters are the dumbasses? Dumbassi...<I> Well, whose supporters are the dumbasses? Dumbassism doesn't seem to hold hegemonic sway. </I><BR/><BR/>How true, how true. Anyway, from a European perspective there isn't that much difference between the two political parties in the US: one is conservative, the other reactionary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-91308876230574734592007-06-12T20:56:00.000+02:002007-06-12T20:56:00.000+02:00roman said... News flash: The USA is not an EU cou...roman said... <BR/>News flash: The USA is not an EU country, it was attacked, it has the right to retaliate and track down those responsible. <BR/><BR/><BR/>So when are you invading Saudi Arabia? That's where the terrorists came from and where all their funding comes from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-82335975580711719602007-06-12T17:33:00.000+02:002007-06-12T17:33:00.000+02:00I want to make clear that I do not share this Amer...I want to make clear that I do not share this Americans are dumb stuff. Americans are actually made up of Europeans plus loads of other people. So who is dumb? <BR/><BR/>And just cause they keep electing people like Bush does not make them dumb - it just shows that American politics is pretty dumb.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.com