tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post4550159430864230004..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Using the Holocaust to beat the Israelisbeatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-89453606573507029942009-01-18T02:20:00.000+01:002009-01-18T02:20:00.000+01:00I didn't realize you were attempting to be polemic...I didn't realize you were attempting to be polemical.<BR/><BR/>My argument is validated by you supporting losers and being a loser yourself. <BR/><BR/>And you've consigned a number of viewpoints to me that I don't hold. That's typical of the way losers argue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-37040090663000591452009-01-18T01:01:00.000+01:002009-01-18T01:01:00.000+01:00Typo clarification from earlier - "nuclear" should...Typo clarification from earlier - "nuclear" should have read "chemical" and "farmers" instead "sugar cane workers." <BR/><BR/>ge'ez said: "You have no point and no purpose other than to elect Republicans. Loser."<BR/><BR/>Such a high degree of polemics!<BR/><BR/>Unable to make even a single valid argument in favour of your case, you resort to the textual equivalent of mooning. <BR/><BR/>You've represented the type of individuals who share your views perfectly, ge'ez.<BR/><BR/>Case closed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-4972370805757190752009-01-18T00:05:00.000+01:002009-01-18T00:05:00.000+01:00You have no point and no purpose other than to ele...You have no point and no purpose other than to elect Republicans. Loser.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-15843873182211631132009-01-17T23:41:00.000+01:002009-01-17T23:41:00.000+01:00This proves my point, exactly.This proves my point, exactly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-15330457776655811282009-01-17T22:01:00.000+01:002009-01-17T22:01:00.000+01:00Blah-blah-blah. Loser.Blah-blah-blah. Loser.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-43980404757879692032009-01-17T19:47:00.000+01:002009-01-17T19:47:00.000+01:00ge'ez said: "Circular reasoning, heh? A blind foll...ge'ez said: "Circular reasoning, heh? A blind follower? I have nothing to gain from attempting to discuss anything with a committed loser, anon. Sorry, but I think you're the disjoined Republican twin because the best you can possibly achieve is to help them win."<BR/><BR/>The anti-abolitionists during the 19th century would have loved you as one of their own, ge'ez - you're using the same exact same arguments as they did.<BR/><BR/>And just like the anti-abolitionists, you are arrogantly attacking and persecuting people who actually take a stand for liberty, human rights, and non-violence.<BR/><BR/>Oh, well...I guess you'll be happy no matter what, as long as your beloved Party is in power. The same Party of the Vietnam war, slavery, the anti-suffrage movement, planned nuclear attacks on Cuban farmers, the starvation of Iraqis, the bombing of Kosovo, deregulation, and a host of so many other "wonderful" things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-83027903059496987082009-01-17T14:17:00.000+01:002009-01-17T14:17:00.000+01:00Circular reasoning, heh? A blind follower? I have...Circular reasoning, heh? A blind follower? I have nothing to gain from attempting to discuss anything with a committed loser, anon. Sorry, but I think you're the disjoined Republican twin because the best you can possibly achieve is to help them win.<BR/><BR/>BR, I can't speak for Gavin but Israeli PM Olmert made it clear recently that the gubmint there, no matter it's politics, is first and foremeost concerned about maintaining Israel as a Jewish state: "If we are determined to preserve the Jewish and democratic character of the state of Israel, we must inevitably relinquish with great pain parts of our homeland."<BR/><BR/>The problem for the Israelis who want to maintain control over the West Bank and Gaza is that they are even now outnumbered by Palestinians in that conquered greater Israel: 5.5 million <BR/>Arabs to 5.4 million Jews. The Palestinian birthrate is higher and the projected population estimated for 2020 is 8.5 million Arabs and 6.4 million Jews for the same area.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, some Arab intellectuals are saying, like you, fuhgidabowd the two state solution and just wait a coupla decades.<BR/><BR/>So if the Israelis want to maintain their Jewish state, which they obviously *insist* upon, they better figure out that they need to work towards a two-state solution. And that they are shooting themselves in the foot and maybe even worse by bombing the hell out of the Palestinians instead of sitting down and seriously negotiating with them. And the only way they can do that is to give up the settlements and provide generous compensation for property lost by Palestinian refugees. Or abandon the idea of a Jewish state, which they ain't gonna do no how, no way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-56419127115615604962009-01-17T13:08:00.000+01:002009-01-17T13:08:00.000+01:00ge'ez,Didn't you earlier blame Al Gore's "loss" on...ge'ez,<BR/><BR/>Didn't you earlier blame Al Gore's "loss" on Nader? Now you're saying that it shouldn't matter because Gore "won" the popular vote, anyway?<BR/><BR/>Circular reasoning, you have there. Which just proves that you who blindly follow Democrats (nearly all of whom favoured the Iraqi war, and nearly all of whom were against impeaching Bush/Cheney) are little more than twins of those who blindly follow Republicans.<BR/><BR/>I won't even get into the subjects of the million of Iraqis who were starved to death, the later bombing of Iraq, the bombing of at least one pharmaceutical plant elsewhere (which poor people in that area relied on for their medicine) and the brutality carried out in the Balkans - all of which were spearheaded by guess-which-Party even before that Party became the Bush-lite Party.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-46409102454934198842009-01-17T10:34:00.000+01:002009-01-17T10:34:00.000+01:00No..I think I know Gavin and he mewans that israel...No..I think I know Gavin and he mewans that israel should not be recognised...he's from that kind of politics...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-40610097982095290152009-01-16T23:40:00.000+01:002009-01-16T23:40:00.000+01:00I think Gavin was making a point about Israel not ...I think Gavin was making a point about Israel not only being recognized as a state but as *a Jewish state*.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-45358551753929069452009-01-16T23:37:00.000+01:002009-01-16T23:37:00.000+01:00Anon,What facts? The vast, vast majority of folks ...Anon,<BR/><BR/>What facts? <BR/><BR/>The vast, vast majority of folks who voted for Nader would have never, ever voted for Bush.<BR/><BR/>Let's get real here, heh?<BR/><BR/>And if you are going to include the other 49 states in your calculations, you might want to consider who won the popular vote in that election.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-67754436417761759532009-01-16T22:01:00.000+01:002009-01-16T22:01:00.000+01:00Oh, Gavin.“By recognising Israel, does this mean a...Oh, Gavin.<BR/><BR/><I>“By recognising Israel, does this mean accepting its right to exist as a Jewish state? Isn't this the point which is causing apartheid in the region? ”</I><BR/><BR/>So, when folk are not using the ridiculous Holocaust when describing what is going on in Gaza, then we switch to the apartheid metaphor. But it isn’t apartheid, and thinking that is not really going to help you understand what is going on there.<BR/><BR/>Apartheid was a socially exclusive system based on race. But when you go to Israel - which doesn’t need recognising - it is simply a fact - you will notice that there are in the main two types of citizen. The Europeans who came after the Holocaust (the real one) - mainly socialist in ideology - and “Arab Jews” who came from all over the place, but mainly Morocco and Iraq in the earlier days…and mainly rightwing and the more nationalist of the two groups. <BR/><BR/>But Arab Jews is what the latter group is - so this is not about social exclusion threw race (although there has been discrimination against the Arab Jews…less go to university etc. <BR/><BR/>So apartheid this is not because being a Jew is not being part of a Race…so, no apartheid.<BR/><BR/>These easy slogans make what should be a principled demonstration against what is going on in Gaza look like a pantomime with some dubious overtones.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-56219474104182897082009-01-16T19:10:00.000+01:002009-01-16T19:10:00.000+01:00ge'ez,It certainly is "borne out by the facts."Eve...ge'ez,<BR/><BR/>It certainly is "borne out by the facts."<BR/><BR/>Even a quarter of a million registered Democrats there voted for Bush, rather than accept the deplorable Gore/Lieberman ticket. Can you imagine how many more would have voted for Bush had there be no third-party candidates to choose from?<BR/><BR/>And this is just talking about one state in the U.S. - not to mention the other 49!<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the same basic argument was made against the Abolitionist party in the 19th century: "you can't win, so just vote for the party which is for some slavery rather than the party which is for more slavery." <BR/><BR/>If the Abolitionist party listened to this, slavery may have never been abolished in the U.S. But they kept to their principles and their ideals, and refused to vote for "the lesser of two evils." They kept the pressure on the two leading parties. And eventually they won their cause.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-29215293901842250072009-01-16T15:16:00.000+01:002009-01-16T15:16:00.000+01:00By recognising Israel, does this mean accepting it...By recognising Israel, does this mean accepting its right to exist as a Jewish state? Isn't this the point which is causing apartheid in the region?<BR/><BR/>GavinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-27895245793878501022009-01-16T12:02:00.000+01:002009-01-16T12:02:00.000+01:00Nearly always but not in the most recent current c...Nearly always but not in the most recent current context as amply demonstrated by Gore's loss. Your contention that "Bush would have gotten even more votes in Florida in 2000 if no third-party candidates were running in the state" is simply not borne out by the facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-46567289947507339372009-01-16T10:18:00.000+01:002009-01-16T10:18:00.000+01:00"Bulldog Party," typo there, sorry. I meant Bull ..."Bulldog Party," typo there, sorry. I meant Bull Moose Party!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-86423295441619983352009-01-16T09:49:00.000+01:002009-01-16T09:49:00.000+01:00ge'ez said:'And if the third party candidate manag...ge'ez said:<BR/><BR/>'And if the third party candidate managed to get about 8% of the vote, McCain would have won and would have provided even more military support to Israel and turned an even blinder eye to Israeli militaristic overkill, not to mention launcing all other sorts of militaristic adventurism as well.'<BR/><BR/>Actually, third party candidates nearly always help the Democratic Party. Obama's lead in polls over McCain extended after third-party candidates entered the race. Clinton won thanks to Perot in 1992. Wilson won thanks to the Bulldog party. And Bush would have gotten even more votes in Florida in 2000 if no third-party candidates were running in the state.<BR/><BR/>Wasn't every vote cast for Kerry back in 2004 a vote "thrown away," anyway? It didn't help anything. And the Kerry/Edwards team refused to adequately look into the discrepancies between the exit polls and the actual vote count. As a matter of fact, it was only third-party candidates who launched investigations into the matter. <BR/><BR/>If the Democratic Party weren't so arrogant in that race with its insistence that certain third-party candidates be removed from the voting ballot, perhaps they would have faired better.<BR/><BR/>The "lesser of two evils" is still an "evil." Unless you think that voting in favour of FISA, voting against Universal single-payer Healthcare, being against a two-state solution in the Middle East, believing that nuclear power should be an open option for energy, that the war in Afghanistan must continue on a heavier scale, and that wanting to expand the death penalty are all "good" things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1587553482761683762009-01-15T15:32:00.000+01:002009-01-15T15:32:00.000+01:00And if the third party candidate managed to get a...And if the third party candidate managed to get about 8% of the vote, McCain would have won and would have provided even more military support to Israel and turned an even blinder eye to Israeli militaristic overkill, not to mention launcing all other sorts of militaristic adventurism as well.<BR/><BR/>And BR, maybe American diplomacy can get the Palestinians to see the light. Given that there's been no such attempt at diplomacy over the past 8 years, who knows? I think Obama was very crafty in putting Hillary in the position of Sec of State. Either she pulls a rabbit out of the hat or ....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-59472701564903630352009-01-15T15:04:00.000+01:002009-01-15T15:04:00.000+01:00I think that two facts which are often ignored whe...I think that two facts which are often ignored when discussing this topic are 1) that Arabs are also Semites, and 2) that many (if not the majority of) Jews have openly spoken out against and condemned Israel's policies. <BR/><BR/>Also interesting is that, with some exceptions (i.e., politicians such as Joe Lieberman) the main supporters of Israel in the U.S. are probably not so much Jews as they are Evangelicals, Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. <BR/><BR/>So in any case criticizing Israel's actions cannot be termed "anti-Semitism." <BR/><BR/>The U.S. position as espoused by neocons during the Bush administration is not likely to change during the Obama administration. As a matter of fact, the Obama team may prove to be even more Pro "only Israel" in its stance than the Bush team.<BR/><BR/>Americans who wanted any actual change with regard to the U.S. position towards the Palestinian/Israeli situation should have voted for a third-party candidate during the Presidential elections, as both Republicans and Democrats (once again with very few exceptions, such as Ron Paul of the Republicans or Dennis Kucinich of the Democrats) support Israeli's actions almost blindly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-15150203634388930892009-01-15T08:36:00.000+01:002009-01-15T08:36:00.000+01:00:-) Actually, if the palestinians launched a campa...:-) Actually, if the palestinians launched a campaign of non violent action, supported non violently by states around it, which declare Israel's right to exsist the pressure on Israel would be huge. The only way that america can say that "Israel has every right to defend itself" is because there are those who wish to see Israel pushed into the sea. If Arabs etc stop doing that then they won;t have a leg to stand on...<BR/><BR/>I think that is quite a reasonable political strategy. It's a winner. But many will have to swallow hard before doing it...<BR/><BR/>and it's a lot better than what we have now...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-39145177225243076162009-01-15T00:04:00.000+01:002009-01-15T00:04:00.000+01:00The Palestinians have a better chance of getting f...The Palestinians have a better chance of getting full and complete rights in Long Island.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-6108373706506139612009-01-14T19:21:00.000+01:002009-01-14T19:21:00.000+01:00Geez, the alternative to a two state is a one stat...Geez, the alternative to a two state is a one state solution. And I don;t mean the usual lefty "smash Israel" solution, either. <BR/><BR/>I think it would tactically and practically better for Palestinians and the nations that surround it to except that Israel is there, that it is now an established state and that it isn't going to go away anytime soon. So, why not so "OK, we support your right to exsist so we want complete and full rights within that state...". <BR/><BR/>It would be very hard for Israel to resist those demands. Israel is a progressive state in many ways in that region - in terms of democracy etc. So a progressive solution would be a one state solution with a mixed citizenship.<BR/><BR/>but do I see this happening anytime soon? sadly, no. But that does not make it the wrong solution.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-50746282170420274332009-01-14T17:40:00.000+01:002009-01-14T17:40:00.000+01:00But you will see those posters. And you won't jus...But you will see those posters. And you won't just be protesting against the Israeli incursion.<BR/><BR/>And what realistic alternative is there to a two state solution? That said, it's hard to expect any kind of solution given both sides' unrelenting intransigence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-70415379049156876652009-01-14T12:02:00.000+01:002009-01-14T12:02:00.000+01:00Cheers. But if see a "we are all hamas/hezbollah n...Cheers. But if see a "we are all hamas/hezbollah now" banners I am gonna burn it...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-43690592675328447592009-01-14T12:01:00.000+01:002009-01-14T12:01:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.com