tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post3638744278969250903..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Poland’s Tents against anti-Semitismbeatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-27779829918936150172007-10-25T00:39:00.000+02:002007-10-25T00:39:00.000+02:00http://thetruthaboutsethpatinkin.blogspot.com/http://thetruthaboutsethpatinkin.blogspot.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-30778804477474826432007-10-17T02:06:00.000+02:002007-10-17T02:06:00.000+02:00This lawsuit is nowhere near as interesting as the...This lawsuit is nowhere near as interesting as the two civil rights lawsuits brought against our Mayor and our esteemed Legal Department (headed by Kruzan's former campaign director/Boonville cop Kevin Robling) by two former Jewish residents: Barbara Leonard and Seth Patinkin. Word is, the City is going to make a special assessment to cover the $millions in legal fees they plan to incur fighting these folks. Another word of advice: better find another $5-10million to pay off Leonard and Patinkin, these are two very savvy businesspeople. If Kruzan does not make some changes soon to ratchet down his godfather ambitions, I will start rolling a petition mandating his recall from office myself. There is no damn way I am going to pay more out of my pocket to allow Kruzan to fight his personal vendettas. Isn't anyone else as upset about this stuff as I am?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-38976983520727015322007-09-25T11:55:00.000+02:002007-09-25T11:55:00.000+02:00One last pointCommunists like Ren attempt to gain ...One last point<BR/><BR/>Communists like Ren attempt to gain "revolutionary" brownie points by repeating the most rabid of anti-semitic party talking points. Jews have known who we are for centuries. Communist are not the arbiters of ethnic authenticity.<BR/><BR/>One who converts to Islam is no longer considered a Jew. Fealty to an elitist cult that worships a warcriminal (Trotsky) and sanctions class genocide is not a Jewish concept. Communists are mentally defective traitors whose essence is alienation, deception and theft. None of those qualities are Jewish in any definition.beakerkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-35086926096391767642007-09-25T03:38:00.000+02:002007-09-25T03:38:00.000+02:00BeatrootMy family is from the region and to a pers...Beatroot<BR/><BR/>My family is from the region and to a person they never considered themselves Poles. I was surrounded by people who were born in Poland, Balts, Ukraine and Russia and never once heard anyone in my community ever call themselves Polish. This is not to say that this is anti Polish and so forth but Jews have always considered themselves a Nationality. Even the communist hacks in the Soviet Union right Jew under nationality on their ID forms. For sheer political expediency Commies now turn their own logic on their head and say you are a mere religion. Funny one does not speak Methodist and any talk of Lutheranism as a nation is comedic.beakerkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-19543056959848558572007-09-24T07:40:00.000+02:002007-09-24T07:40:00.000+02:00Andrzej, first, thank you for doubting my honesty....Andrzej, first, thank you for doubting my honesty. Secondly, of course the fliers were the work of a tiny lunatic fringe (or a single nutcase with too much free time). I never claimed otherwise (and thought it was obvious).<BR/><BR/>What I thought was interesting was how extreme and yet strangely unoriginal it was. In the US our nutcases imagine that the world is controlled by shape-shifting reptilians from another planet (Bushes? Reptilians, Queen Elisabeth? Yep, Reptilian). In Poland the most the crazies can come up with is masons and jews?<BR/><BR/>Also FWIW panhandlers from Radio Maryja used to stand outside the same church to accept donations.<BR/><BR/>Finally, one good thing about Poland is that anti-semitism has lost the pseudo-intellectual shine it once had and is a reliable marker for not-enough formal education and/or mental illness. Maciej Giertych would like to give it prestige it once had among racial theorists, but he's been unsuccessful so far.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-18528956657756783942007-09-24T00:05:00.000+02:002007-09-24T00:05:00.000+02:00Michael Ferris,If this really happened, then it so...Michael Ferris,<BR/><BR/>If this really happened, then it sounds like Poland has become a true Western democracy, where out of millions of normal inhabitants, a few isolated lunatics are among them.<BR/><BR/>This doesn't prove any country wide anti-semitism at all. It only shows the presence of a small minority of idiots.<BR/><BR/>FYI: I attend mass religiously every Sunday in one of the largest cities in Poland, and I never witnessed such nonsense in my entire life.<BR/><BR/>BTW, did you hear about the group of Russian Jews in Israel that were recently arrested for Neo-Nazi behavior, physical abuse, and painting Nazi graffiti? That's what I call an embarrasment. Do a search on Google for that one.<BR/><BR/>Andrzej Kulinski<BR/>Łódż, PolandAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-68513166253777800612007-09-23T23:05:00.000+02:002007-09-23T23:05:00.000+02:00FYI. A friend gave me a copy of a flier left outsi...FYI. A friend gave me a copy of a flier left outside his church. As he arrived alter boys were busy gathering them up from where they had been left by a helpful soul.<BR/><BR/>The flier is an impressive bit of conspiracy-fed lunacy, in which we learn (among other fascinating stuff) that the Kaczynskis are in fact ... jews and masons who are in the process of 'liquidating' Poland which will then serve as "Israel version 2" with a few million poor Poles kept around as a cheap labor force.<BR/><BR/>Apparently Lepper and Giertych are the only non-Jews around (the closest to a group taking credit is something called 'Polish emigrants in favor of Poland for Poles). There's a request for the receiver to make 100 copies and pass them on...michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-21132562010292860402007-09-23T21:54:00.000+02:002007-09-23T21:54:00.000+02:00To "Aaron":You are right, one should not judge a g...To "Aaron":<BR/>You are right, one should not judge a group of people by the behavior of a subgroup. You shouldn't. In principle. <BR/><BR/>But things aren't always as they should be. Ask sociologists, they will tell you that group identity is always shaped in contrast to other groups. The existence of a "We" implies the existence of a "They." Let me remind you of Bereshit 2: Adam realizes that he is "I" at the very moment, when G-d puts a distinct Other, Eve, at his side. <BR/><BR/>The nearer, in principle, two groups are, the more they must underline the differences between them to preserve their group identity. The need for stressing differences entails exaggerations, generalizations and, more often than not, invention of stereotypes concerning the members of the other group(s). This holds particularly for groups that feel that their identity is endangered, e.g. people or minorities surrounded by stronger Others.<BR/><BR/>So Poles will have to live with antipolonism, Germans with antigermanism, and Jews with antisemitism. Even US Americans will have to learn that not everybody in the world loves them.<BR/><BR/>As long as these anti-isms remain verbal, they should be tolerated. The way Polish law enforcement authorities handle expressions of antisemitism, IMO is much wiser than the way of perfect surveillance and rigid suppression that is followed in countries such as Germany or France. It leaves open a safety valve and prevents society from periodical outbursts of violence, as we see them paradigmatically in France. "Letting the idiots howl," as Deborah Lipstadt said, doesn't make the world more comfortable for Jews, but safer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-13065457839972616892007-09-23T16:41:00.000+02:002007-09-23T16:41:00.000+02:00Europeczyk:I do not think at all it is 'anti-semit...Europeczyk:<BR/><BR/>I do not think at all it is 'anti-semitic' to refer to one's real surname, especially if that person changed it from its original form. Also, I have excellent contacts with all members of society here in Poland, ranging from intellectuals to simple rural workers. All of those people have been repectable to me.<BR/><BR/>You said: <I>"Things are different, if Poles speak to a person they know is not Jewish. I very often hear, "I'm not an antisemite, but ..." And after the 5th vodka, I often hear something like, "What the Germans did with the Jews, was a bloody scandal, but they luckily rid us of them."</I><BR/><BR/>Are you trying to say this is representative of all 38+ million Poles living in Poland? If you are, then it is called 'stereotyping' and 'generalizing'. It might be true from your circle of friends that you heard something like this, but you certainly cannot apply 'collective responsibility' to the entire population of Poland. This not only pertains to you, but with many commenatators on this blog and other forums. Too many people have the unfair tendancy to say 'all Poles' or 'Poland is...'. It is impossible to apply any single negative trait or behavior to an entire country or population. I see this problem too often among my fellow Jews in the USA who have the habit of blaming all Germans and Germany for the crimes of the holocaust. The holocaust was due to the very people that insitigated it and who took active part in it. Not all Germans and the entire country 'Germany' where Nazis and holocaust collaborators.<BR/><BR/>Beatroot:<BR/><BR/>There is no problem in Poland with anti-semitism. It seems more to be a problem of exaggeration. The problem with anti-semitism, or anti-Polonism, belongs solely to the people responsible for committing the act itself, and not the entire population or country.<BR/><BR/>Example: A recent news-blurb taints Germany with the damaging headlines: "Xenophobic attack on Eastern European students in German city". The average reader seeing this headline will initially related Germany with Xenophobia, and not realize it was an act of several idiots and not the entire population or he government. The same type of headlines are too often publicized about Poland. We in Warsaw's Jewish community are trying our best to work with the Polish and Euroepan press to avoid such generalizations in the near future. It is damaging to any country's image to make such associations, and lacks objective reporting.<BR/><BR/>AaronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-53206731616767146592007-09-22T17:17:00.000+02:002007-09-22T17:17:00.000+02:00I am glad that Aaron feels comfortable here. That ...I am glad that Aaron feels comfortable here. That is important. I wouldn’t think an African feels so comfortable – though I am sure that we will discuss that again quite soon. <BR/><BR/>But there is one huge problem here regarding anti-Semitism. In the US, in UK etc it would simply not be possible to have someone like Giertych, or any of his other political throwbacks, in government. And it is that which makes people looking at Poland from the outside conclude that the country has a bit of a problem.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-41794025372453275672007-09-22T17:15:00.000+02:002007-09-22T17:15:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-6915703905130002762007-09-22T16:56:00.000+02:002007-09-22T16:56:00.000+02:00I would like to draw attention to another point in...I would like to draw attention to another point in the antisemitism discussion, worldwide. There does not exist a clear and unambiguous definition of "antisemitic behavior." Is it an expression of antisemitism, to refer to Mr. Kwasniewski as "Stoltzmann," or to W. Szymborska as "z domu Rotermund"? You can find similar statements every once in a while in Poland. <BR/><BR/>Let me make still another remark. I do not doubt that "Aaron" met more overt (!) antisemitism in the US than in Poland. "Aaron" says that he wears a _micke_. That clearly identifies him as Jewish. I further assume that "Aaron" has his contacts in Poland predominantly with well-educated people ("wyksztalciuchy"). They know about the Holocaust and would, as educated individuals, never behave in a way that may hurt a Jew. In Poland, the Holocaust is part of the national trauma, in the US, it is not. And in addition, people in the US - that is my experience - like to speak their minds, whereas educated Poles are rather restrained.<BR/><BR/>Things are different, if Poles speak to a person they know is not Jewish. I very often hear, "I'm not an antisemite, but ..." And after the 5th vodka, I often hear something like, "What the Germans did with the Jews, was a bloody scandal, but they luckily rid us of them." (Read "Kobieta cmentarna" by Z. Nalkowska, you'll find this statement already made during the Warsaw ghetto uprising.)<BR/><BR/>And what is more: for those who do not like Jews and/or have anti-Jewish prejudices it doesn't matter what halacha says, who is a Jew. They "know better." Does it help a person harassed by a Jew-hater, if Rabbi X says that the victim wasn't Jewish? Antisemitism, as Poland and Japan graphically show, doesn't need "real" Jews. Imagined ones are sufficient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-60444021317892394042007-09-22T13:47:00.000+02:002007-09-22T13:47:00.000+02:00Harry wrote: mates with the football scarves woul...<I>Harry wrote: mates with the football scarves would start beating up ginger-haired people.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, Wisla-Krakow hooligans do beat up ginger-haired people if they root for Cracovia. <BR/><BR/>Harry, I do read your column tho clubbing has never been my schtick.<BR/>Just wondering tho... seriously, what do you like about Poland? Why do you stay there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-87059861661825573762007-09-22T09:24:00.000+02:002007-09-22T09:24:00.000+02:00The last comment was by yours truly, Aaron. :-)The last comment was by yours truly, Aaron. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-92046722565029249232007-09-22T09:23:00.000+02:002007-09-22T09:23:00.000+02:00Michael:Interesting indeed, that Wikipedia states ...Michael:<BR/><BR/>Interesting indeed, that Wikipedia states Adam Michnik's mother, Helena Michnik, "<I>...was a fervant gentile communist.</I>" If this is true, then according to Jewish law, Adam Michnik isn't Jewish at all, but has "Jewish roots'. I would then agree with you he isn't Jewish, but does have much more than 'slightest' Jewish roots via his father, half to be exact. The same applies to Beatroot's girlfriend, who has only 'Jewish roots'. Thanks for providing that reference. Again, I'm curious as to how accurate that info is.<BR/><BR/>Geez:<BR/><BR/>That is correct, I wear a yarmulke. My comment about 'one religion...humanism', was a tad of tongue and cheek humor if you noted my multiple 'smileys' embedded in that posting.<BR/><BR/>Harry:<BR/><BR/>Of course, as in every country, there are individuals with anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, and anti-Muslim feelings. I've been all over most of Europe and the USA. In my opinion, the level of anti-Jewish feeling or anti-semitism is much higher in the USA and most of Western Europe. I've been in Poland long enough to form this conclusion. Anti-semitism in Poland is very small.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-2391911913515190472007-09-22T02:42:00.000+02:002007-09-22T02:42:00.000+02:00Aaron: there are more than a few people in Poland ...Aaron: there are more than a few people in Poland who have anti-Semitic feelings. When you've been here a while you'll know that. <BR/><BR/>geez: Marek W. faces a maximum of three years in prison. I wrote about it today in my column.<BR/><BR/>opamp: How come there are any racist crimes in Poland? Because there are some people for your friends to abuse. If we were to see your dream come to pass and Poland were to be cleansed of non-aryans, most probably your mates with the football scarves would start beating up ginger-haired people. The point is that there are not many non-whites for your friends to attack. Please pass to them my congratulations for them attacking the non-aryans here with more than double the efficiency that the Swedes attack their white man's burden.<BR/>Here's a story which might make you understand: when I was working with VSO up in Slupsk I was in a town of 120,000 people which had three non-whites. Although the number of racist crimes per thousand Poles was lower then than it is now, my Jamaican-Chinese-Canadian co-worker experienced racist abuse every single weekend. From what I understand the situation up there is still equally grim. Well done you for still knowing where to find the black *******s.<BR/><BR/>Despite all your attempts to manipulate numbers you can not hide the fact that a non-white person in Poland is twice as likely to be on the receiving end of racist crime as they would be in Sweden. You can make all the claims you want about what might happen if there were more minorities in Poland but as you yourself have agreed, we only know what happens now. That is that minorities are twice as likely to be victims of racist crime here as in Sweden. Feel welcome to hold up this data as proof that Poland is a tolerant nation, it's easier for me if you declare yourself to be a moron and save me the trouble of pointing out that you are one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-40944714466784768082007-09-22T02:12:00.000+02:002007-09-22T02:12:00.000+02:00Aaron, I don't get it. Earlier on you noted you w...Aaron, I don't get it. Earlier on you noted you wear a yarmulke (sp?) and that you are working to revive the Jewish community in Warsaw, then you write:<BR/><BR/>"Religion is also a major reason for war on this planet of ours. There should be one nationality and religion...'humanism'. This would solve most of the world's conflicts today as we know it."<BR/><BR/>And I hate to tell you but I know more than a few humanists who are bent on waging various wars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-37844246296176197612007-09-22T02:07:00.000+02:002007-09-22T02:07:00.000+02:00They (in Germany and France) even track "anonymous...<I>They (in Germany and France) even track "anonymous" Web users down to help the police in identifying the culprits.... compared to a more tolerant country such as Poland.</I><BR/><BR/>This is just waaaaay too funny the day after a guy in Poland gets busted and thrown in jail for 3 years because he set Google to pop-up Kaczynski to a browser entry of "prick."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-29460644633290032512007-09-21T23:48:00.000+02:002007-09-21T23:48:00.000+02:00One point IMO too much neglected in the antisemiti...One point IMO too much neglected in the antisemitism discussion in this blog is that the "crime rate" is a function of three variables: the definition of "deviant" behavior, the intensity of prosecuting this behavior, and the occurrence of this behavior in society. Let me give two examples: (1) When West Germany in 1969 stopped penalizing male homosexual acts, the sex crimes rate significantly dropped, although the behavior in society did not change. (2) After the Nazi rise to power in Germany, spitting at or beating a Jew or a Communist/Social Democrat was no more prosecuted. The rate of bodily injury crimes dropped in comparison with the Weimar times, though the number of bodily injuries even increased .<BR/> <BR/>In Germany as well as in France the threshold for a behavior to be considered "antisemitic" - and therefore punishable - is set extremely low, and the intensity of prosecuting "antisemitic" behavior is very high, both in comparison to Poland. Statements made in public, e.g. in a pub or as comments on Web forums, that in Poland are simply overheard or just tolerated can bring a German or French citizen behind bars. There are dozens of non-governmental organizations in both countries that monitor the Web, schools, universities, and the local press and report everything that they feel is an expression of racism or antisemitism to the police. They even track "anonymous" Web users down to help the police in identifying the culprits. This makes that countries such as France or Germany have high absolute and relative numbers of antisemitic incidents, compared to a more tolerant country such as Poland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-25768799032305991192007-09-21T22:56:00.000+02:002007-09-21T22:56:00.000+02:00"Adam Michnik, is a Polish-Jew. His mother was Jew..."Adam Michnik, is a Polish-Jew. His mother was Jewish...that is key"<BR/><BR/>According to Wikipedia (usual warnings)<BR/><BR/>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Michnik<BR/><BR/>"He was born to Ozjasz Szechter, a well-known Jewish communist and his wife Helena, a children's writer and fervent Gentile communist"<BR/><BR/>If this is accurate, we can both agree (for somewhat different reasons) that he's not the slightest bit Jewish.<BR/><BR/>I think many Poles however tend to reckon Jewish descent bilaterally and not only matrilineally (including Michnik himself) <BR/><BR/>"Michnik describes himself as a Pole of Jewish origins"michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-73888283491431321302007-09-21T22:24:00.000+02:002007-09-21T22:24:00.000+02:00How can a racist commit a crime against a person o...<I>How can a racist commit a crime against a person of another race when he has no access to people of any other race?</I><BR/><BR/>How come there are <I>any</I> racial crimes in Poland then? My point is that if someone wants to commit a racial crime, they will have no problem with finding a victim, provided the minority population is large enough. I know where to look for minorites in my town; so does everyone everywhere. <BR/><BR/><I>Would the number of attacks on non-whites go proportionately up or down if there were more here? Who knows. We only know the situation now. </I><BR/><BR/>Precisely. <BR/><BR/><I>Have you heard of 'inciting racial hatred'? It's illegal in most places but evidently not in Poland.</I><BR/><BR/>It's illegal in Poland as well. (And people get suntenced for it -- surprise, eh?) But having read the entirety of Rydzyk's speech you quote, I fail to see how his statement (referencing a known FACT of Jewish organizations advancing monetary claims against Polish government) is "inciting racial hatred".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-67680481073602103632007-09-21T22:06:00.000+02:002007-09-21T22:06:00.000+02:00The original post was about 'Polish anti semitism'...The original post was about 'Polish anti semitism'...or not.. I am just trying to get to one of the roots of problem. And I think the idea of 'nation' is one of those.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-44898000351840969452007-09-21T21:59:00.000+02:002007-09-21T21:59:00.000+02:00Religion is a reason for alot of strange stuff. :...Religion is a reason for alot of strange stuff. :-) The three major religions, Christians-Jews, and Muslims... haven't changed in thousands of years. The same laws have been carried over from generation to generation, with very minor changes up until today. Religion is also a major reason for war on this planet of ours. There should be one nationality and religion...'humanism'. This would solve most of the world's conflicts today as we know it. :-) Yes Beatroot, I do question often, why do all religions have too many lousy laws, which sometimes don't make any damn sense.<BR/><BR/>I think for the nation debate, you should start a new thread, so we don't deviate too much from the original topic.<BR/><BR/>AaronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-18332412604465486262007-09-21T21:54:00.000+02:002007-09-21T21:54:00.000+02:00You cannot blame the Poles for that as this countr...<I>You cannot blame the Poles for that as this country is one of the most Catholic in the world...over 95%.</I><BR/><BR/>But Aaron - they are NOT 95 percent Catholic: religion is about BELIEF - and if you are an atheist catholic, then you ainlt a catholic.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-14573225862288099122007-09-21T21:49:00.000+02:002007-09-21T21:49:00.000+02:00You keep saying what is �in the Torah� as if this ...You keep saying what is �in the Torah� as if this is an excuse for strange stuff. Don�t you ever question this? Religions develop. The Vatican was horrified by Darwin, but now they except evolution. <BR/><BR/>And that is not my point, anyway. The problem � on both sides � is the notion of what constitutes a �nation�.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.com