tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post2184461807928817788..comments2024-03-20T10:19:56.838+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Time for Polish politicians to take early retirementbeatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-61638092998638775832007-03-12T17:25:00.000+01:002007-03-12T17:25:00.000+01:00Seems to me that in Poland at present, alternative...<I>Seems to me that in Poland at present, alternatively, only certain groups are being allowed access (aside from some major slips). So this official arrangement, at least, offers unique protections to individuals who are included in the Secret Police files, if those who have access are fair and honest. </I><BR/><BR/>Not quite. <BR/><BR/>You see, the files are NOT classified; they are simply not availabe. They are being made available only to: (1) the people who were invigilated by the communist special services (if decided so by the IPN) and (2) researchers or journalists (if the IPN decides that their request for files is justified). So, in other words, the IPN arbitrarily decides who can see the files and the person who saw the files can disseminate them at will. Which results in the current mess. <BR/><BR/>There is no due process here, because there is no process at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-2587517814464169802007-03-12T16:29:00.000+01:002007-03-12T16:29:00.000+01:00Just saw this on Our Man in Gdansk:"If you send in...Just saw this on Our Man in Gdansk:<BR/><BR/>"If you send in a comment to me you will have to sign the declaration too."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-51854249786850001302007-03-12T15:12:00.000+01:002007-03-12T15:12:00.000+01:00steppx wrote: "if the vetting isnt to stop ANYONE...steppx wrote: "if the vetting isnt to stop ANYONE from writing...say, in electronic or print media....then what is it doing? people have to wear scarlett letters?"<BR/><BR/>><:><:><:><:><:><:><<BR/><BR/>I can't say for sure but it seems that what nemeczek and jannovak want is for the collaborators to be outed for what they've done in the past. Nothing more, nothing less. So I guess it would be like invisible scarlett letters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-17975166351655801512007-03-12T15:00:00.000+01:002007-03-12T15:00:00.000+01:00M. Farris wrote: "no government has any business ...M. Farris wrote: "no government has any business meddling in private media. Employees of private media are not state employees."<BR/><BR/>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR/>Fair enuff, but in the US, let's say, don't private individuals have access to government-held records to do research (as difficult as it oft proves to obtain materials requested)? <BR/><BR/>Seems to me that in Poland at present, alternatively, only certain groups are being allowed access (aside from some major slips). So this official arrangement, at least, offers unique protections to individuals who are included in the Secret Police files, if those who have access are fair and honest. Do those of you who object to vetting of journalists or whoever find these committees laden with Kaczynski hacks, simply determined to settle personal scores? Or do the committees actually offer those suspected of collaboration a certain level of protection against quick individual judgements and consequent defamation of character?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-74745806729803975992007-03-12T13:24:00.000+01:002007-03-12T13:24:00.000+01:00Beat,Youth can't run the government because they'r...Beat,<BR/><BR/>Youth can't run the government because they're leaving the country in record numbers. It seems they've had enough of everything.polishpenguinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07681395865790238082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-53635182459694935872007-03-12T11:37:00.000+01:002007-03-12T11:37:00.000+01:00jannovak: Thanks for the response. Sounds like yo...jannovak: Thanks for the response. Sounds like you could get a job with Hillary Clinton.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-5513005768250153962007-03-12T10:53:00.000+01:002007-03-12T10:53:00.000+01:00jannovak57 said... Can you get anything right when...jannovak57 said... <BR/>Can you get anything right when it comes to Eastern Europe? You should tell us where you stand on lustration to keep yourself on topic.<BR/>With respect to the German community in Poland when the occupation authorities took hold people were asked to declare themselves as Germans or Poles, which was fairly straightforward. But there are no absolutes so there was a grey zone involving mixed families. Notwithstanding if you met the German criteria and declared yourself German you were now a citizen of the Third Reich with all of the corresponding obligations.<BR/>You missed the part were the Soviets send our ethnic German on an all expenses paid trip to the Soviet Union for a few years.<BR/>The small detail of being a Polish citizens and switching sides in the middle of a war shouldn’t get anyone too excited, right Harry.<BR/>Now when I as a Pole hear of German suffering in WW2 such as ethnic cleansing, murder, rape and confiscation of property it evokes nothing more than a yawn.<BR/><BR/><BR/>So, no comment at all about being called out on your lies again? Just thought that you’d get away with it and can’t believe that somebody would point out that you were lying yet again. Really is quite amazing how you can post such utter rubbish and expect to get away with it. Let’s have a look at the shite you posted above: Volksdeutsche were most certainly not citizens of the Reich. Citizens of the Reich were called Reichsdeutsche. Any children of mixed marriages would be put into category III of the Volksliste (and thus according to General Decree 12/C not able to become German officials). Category IV of the list which you portray as a declaration of being Polish or German was actually for what the Nazis regarded as German renegades: ethnic Germans who worked in a manner hostile to Germany. <BR/>The Soviets did indeed send ethnic Germans to the USSR. Poland just locked the ethnic Germans up in concentration camps and then shipped them all to the new Germany. Strangely we only get to hear about the crimes committed by the camp director who was a Jew. <BR/>Nice to note that you as a human can do no more than yawn at the thought of other humans being murdered, raped or robbed of everything they own. <BR/><BR/>As for lustration: I support fair trials for every person against whom there is a reasonable suspicion that he/she committed a crime and the statute of limitations for that crime has not yet expired.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-48009183718991171792007-03-12T10:50:00.000+01:002007-03-12T10:50:00.000+01:00beatroot: 'There is a bunch of civil servants that...beatroot: 'There is a bunch of civil servants that are just under the present leadership that many think are really good...'<BR/>do you mean people like the spokesperson for the ministry of finances? you know the blond handsome one? <BR/>yeah he's hot. <BR/>but I wouldn't describe him as 'really good'. aren't you mistaking arrogance and self-centredness with efficiency? being young attactive and blonde is not the same as being a good civil servant. if that was the case then the 'Bel-Ami Boys' would be ruling the world, man. ( and let me tell you its a bloody shame they aren't!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-12562406521559567602007-03-12T09:49:00.000+01:002007-03-12T09:49:00.000+01:00jann.....you DIDNT answer again...but thats ok. Wh...jann.....you DIDNT answer again...but thats ok. What you said reveals your politics quite clearly. <BR/>Im confused.....if the vetting isnt to stop ANYONE from writing...say, in electronic or print media....then what is it doing? people have to wear scarlett letters? I dont follow. If the government determines someone was a collaberator....and that should be clearly defined...then they cant write? So, we are stopping free speech essentially. See jann.....and work with me here...FREE means even people you despise get to express their opinions. <BR/><BR/>Old commies should stay out of government and shouldnt write. Gee.....what a free society you desire......<BR/>amazing.<BR/><BR/>but look, if you are vetted...which is a grotesque invasion of privacy just for openers....and you are labled a collaberator...then you can still work....thats what you're saying.....or not? See, this is confusing.....you want people vetted but there or isnt a penalty?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-70821393865374552292007-03-12T05:43:00.000+01:002007-03-12T05:43:00.000+01:00geez said...” what is your political affilation or...geez said...” what is your political affilation or leaning”<BR/><BR/>I would describe myself a social conservative having said that I am pro-choice and believe in the separation of church and state.<BR/><BR/>In economics I believe in a free market system but restrained by the need for a reasonable social safety net.<BR/><BR/>In international affairs I take the position Poland should do whatever it takes to insure it’s security by any means fair or foul as it’s situation and history allows for little else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-67033919686615929462007-03-12T05:30:00.000+01:002007-03-12T05:30:00.000+01:00steppx said... “you manage to NOT answer”I though ...steppx said... “you manage to NOT answer”<BR/>I though I addressed your question 7 posts back from your last post however. In terms of the vetting law there is no restrictions on who can be a journalist or what material they can or cannot publish. I personally believe people associated with the old regime should stay out of the political life of the country including indirect aspects such as journalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-75124036266632965342007-03-12T02:32:00.000+01:002007-03-12T02:32:00.000+01:00And the decent youth will become politically invol...And the decent youth will become politically involved? I doubt it. And if they do, they'll become compromised and lose their decency. And the dinosaurs and all the rest of the MFs will stay in power. It's the way of the world.<BR/><BR/>I'm not suggesting folks who want change should lay down but I don't expect all that much good to flourish in this world. Whereever it's to be found, it's a blessing. <BR/><BR/>BTW, jannowak, what is your political affilation or leaning?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-53930162534317445132007-03-12T02:13:00.000+01:002007-03-12T02:13:00.000+01:00thanks opmap. I appreciate the clarification.Jann....thanks opmap. I appreciate the clarification.<BR/><BR/>Jann.....i dont know, you manage to NOT answer most of my questions....but hey, I can understand that. Your truely deeply disorted and myopic vision of polish history is breathtaking.<BR/><BR/>And again, Im suggesting *signed* documents hardly constitute proof....of anything, really....beyond the fact they were signed. Especially in this context...with a government you distrust. Why do you trust them on this issue? And as ive said, I have students who's family have been involved in what amounts to witch hunts. But the reactionaries like yourself seldom care for such details.<BR/><BR/>But i give up. One gets, often, what one deserves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-40841895358930441252007-03-12T00:38:00.000+01:002007-03-12T00:38:00.000+01:00Geez – of course, culture reproduces itself and do...Geez – of course, culture reproduces itself and doesn’t die out with physical bodies. And we do have All-Polish-Yoof. <BR/><BR/>But generally, young Poles fit better with the modern world. They have adapted better because they are not burdened by the past so much. They also have much better skills. Young Poles are pretty good. The young managers are as good as in the West – maybe better. My girlfriend is young-ish…(I am gonna get in big trouble for the ‘ish’) and she started out as a marketing person in a small film distributors, with no budget at all. So she learnt a lot of creative tricks. And then she got in a western sized company and could apply all that knowledge - but with a decent budget! <BR/><BR/>Westerners don’t often have that kind of experience. So the future for Poland is good. It’s only being held back by the dinosaurs and their Jurassic ideologies and mindset.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-3390364528419744832007-03-12T00:16:00.000+01:002007-03-12T00:16:00.000+01:00Harry said: “let's look at what happened to the et...Harry said: “let's look at what happened to the ethnic German Polish citizens who were conscripted into the German army: they were by and large stripped of their property and thrown out of Poland.”<BR/><BR/>Can you get anything right when it comes to Eastern Europe? You should tell us where you stand on lustration to keep yourself on topic.<BR/><BR/>With respect to the German community in Poland when the occupation authorities took hold people were asked to declare themselves as Germans or Poles, which was fairly straightforward. But there are no absolutes so there was a grey zone involving mixed families. Notwithstanding if you met the German criteria and declared yourself German you were now a citizen of the Third Reich with all of the corresponding obligations.<BR/><BR/>You missed the part were the Soviets send our ethnic German on an all expenses paid trip to the Soviet Union for a few years.<BR/><BR/>The small detail of being a Polish citizens and switching sides in the middle of a war shouldn’t get anyone too excited, right Harry.<BR/><BR/>Now when I as a Pole hear of German suffering in WW2 such as ethnic cleansing, murder, rape and confiscation of property it evokes nothing more than a yawn.<BR/><BR/>From time to time people say the Germans lack a flare for comedy I beg to differ on this point you should check out a new German movie Die Flucht and if you go to Berlin see an exhibit called Forced Paths.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-46834770739449779832007-03-11T23:42:00.000+01:002007-03-11T23:42:00.000+01:00Are jann and opamp saying that people who were com...<I>Are jann and opamp saying that people who were communists should be prevented from having jobs and earning a living and writing/expressing opinions?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know about Jan, but I am NOT saying anything like that. I have merely explained the Kaczynski's reasoning for vetting journalists, without stating my opinion on the subject. <BR/><BR/>If you are interested in my opinion: we have freedom of speech, so they can write what they want, period. I would however consider self-vetting a good style. (Note I am talking about snitches. Being a communist is another matter, and the communists were usually stating openly that they are communists, so I have no problem with them).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-42707119971406210752007-03-11T23:30:00.000+01:002007-03-11T23:30:00.000+01:00So let the young run Poland. It can’t get any wors...So let the young run Poland. It can’t get any worse. <BR/><BR/>>^>^>^>^>^>^><BR/><BR/>I wouldn't be so sure.<BR/><BR/>Somehow, I find it very disturbing that so many (so it seems) young pisspot whippersnappers who never got sent to prison or experienced what it was like to take any real risks under "huj w ciemnych okularach" are now so adamant about calling for "justice" against certain leaders in and related to Solidarnosc who not only talked the talk but walked the walk.<BR/><BR/>I can sympathize and even empathize about vetting the real pricks, but now it's beginning to sound too much like devouring your own, and people to whom you owe your present day freedom.<BR/><BR/>And don't forget this quote from Kurt Vonnegut Jr.:<BR/><BR/>"Things can only get unimaginably worse."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-34250753129365350812007-03-11T22:58:00.000+01:002007-03-11T22:58:00.000+01:00jannovak57 said... The French executed some 30,000...jannovak57 said... <BR/><BR/>The French executed some 30,000 plus collaborators and imprison many more. All seems a bit harsher than our Polish methods.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Might be best not to actually say anything when you know nothing. Go and look at sources which are not Polish history books written in Moscow and you'll find that the commonly agreed number is actually about 10,000 and of that figure about 9,000 were summary executions carried out by resistance forces rather than executions carried out by the state. Further proof that your number is shite can be found by looking at the work of the Commissions d'�puration. They only handed down 1,500 death sentences and more than 500 of those were commuted to life imprisonment. <BR/><BR/>Want to compare that with Poland? Let's look at what happened to the French citizens who volunteered for the Waffen SS Charlemagne division, they were almost all given prison sentences or just transferred to the French army. Now let's look at what happened to the ethnic German Polish citizens who were conscripted into the German army: they were by and large stripped of their property and thrown out of Poland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-24990972773797048432007-03-11T21:18:00.000+01:002007-03-11T21:18:00.000+01:00opamp said... “But of course! The Round Table deal...opamp said... “But of course! The Round Table deal was struck between the communists and their informants”<BR/>This view is without substance at worst they can only be accused of negotiating a bad or incomplete deal. The Kaczynskis are trying to reverse an error made by other people. <BR/><BR/>opamp said...” France executed active collaborators,<BR/>The French executed some 30,000 plus collaborators and imprison many more. All seems a bit harsher than our Polish methods.<BR/><BR/>opamp said...” files of snitches (which is what we are talking about here) remain classified to this day. The reason for that is very simple: no state, democratic or otherwise, can function without secret police”<BR/>No, there was and is a real fear that people could take fragments of information and act on them versus a proper search of the archives before drawing a conclusion. A conclusion, which the vetting law allows a person to challenge in court.<BR/><BR/>opamp said...” the regime officials are untouchable”<BR/>Only for now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-84074769231949767772007-03-11T20:29:00.001+01:002007-03-11T20:29:00.001+01:00steppx said... “anyone who believed in communism s...steppx said... “anyone who believed in communism should be prevented from working as a commentator”<BR/><BR/>Typical of the confused leftist mind you distort reality at every opportunity. The vetting process in no way effects freedom of the press as it has nothing to do with what is or has been published by the person being vetted. It is therefore not related to freedom of the press. Also this law doesn’t have any thing to do with a persons believes not now or the past 30 years. It deals solely with a person’s action with respect to collaboration with the secret police prior to 1989. There is no penalty associated with this law.<BR/><BR/>So if say a person was a communist and a journalist expressing opinions at variance with the government they remain completely unaffected by this vetting law.<BR/><BR/>Also you say proof doesn’t exist and that’s nonsense as there are actual signed documents representing agreements to cooperate with the SB.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-45208149156651109972007-03-11T20:29:00.000+01:002007-03-11T20:29:00.000+01:00the book is worth having alone for the photos of t...<I>the book is worth having alone for the photos of the Solidarity leadership drinking vodka with the commies).</I><BR/><BR/>This all goes back to the splits that were there in Solidarnosc ever since the Lenin shipyard strike. Pragmatists (Walesa) Fundamentalists (Gwiazda). <BR/><BR/>The pragmatists won, of course. Some have never got over it. <BR/><BR/>But it shows you that all of them have demonstrated similar cluelessness about democracy. Walesa ruled like a little Czar. The commies were the commies. And now the fundamentalists (who stove the hardest to preserve democracy within Solidarity) are similarly as intolerant as the rest. <BR/><BR/>But there is hope. There is a bunch of civil servants that are just under the present leadership that many think are really good. Those in similar positions under SLD were comically inept, from the old school. <BR/><BR/>So let the young run Poland. It can’t get any worse.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1211040327022910152007-03-11T19:57:00.000+01:002007-03-11T19:57:00.000+01:00another follow up.Are jann and opamp saying that p...another follow up.<BR/><BR/>Are jann and opamp saying that people who were communists should be prevented from having jobs and earning a living and writing/expressing opinions? Im curious...????????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-8316191024860091562007-03-11T19:55:00.000+01:002007-03-11T19:55:00.000+01:00this is scary. Ok, first to Jannovak...my favorite...this is scary. <BR/>Ok, first to Jannovak...my favorite proto fascist....um, I know this is hard to grasp...but to have someone tried in an impartial court is the way you prove or disprove guilt. See how this works? Digging into old files to determine things 30 years ago is rather obviously fraught with problems. Now, i wonder if you think the US is at all totalitarian? Given the new loss of habeus corpus...and the constant errosion of civil liberties.....I think its getting close. But are you suggesting that anyone who believed in communism should be prevented from working as a commentator? That is truely orwellian and rather astounding on all levels.<BR/><BR/>Snitchs are bad....period. Wherever they are. In the US today, a huge percentage of men and women in prison are there due to informants. A corresponding number of lawyers find this disturbing....since police files, and notes on informers are often unreliable. This insistance on the communist collaborators is actually sort of preverse. But i ask again.....what is the criteria you're using? Names in files of a government you dont trust (by your own admission)? See Jann, you tie yourself in logical knots.<BR/><BR/>Again, this is Orwellina...and since i mentioned ollie north....could you answer that question too> ??!!<BR/><BR/>Jannovak, your opinions really smack of dementia. A free and open society founded on witch hunts and government vetting of alleged, not proven, crimes of thirty years ago.<BR/><BR/>I find this almost laughable....except its really more tragic because Im sure there are others out there like you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-23297099113577944062007-03-11T19:44:00.000+01:002007-03-11T19:44:00.000+01:00@jannovak57:the Polish people have dealt generousl...@jannovak57:<BR/><BR/><I>the Polish people have dealt generously with their tormentor. </I><BR/><BR/>But of course! The Round Table deal was struck between the communists and their informants, who formed the so-called <I>licensed</I> opposition (the <I>unlicensed</I> oppositionists were usually jailed and later given one-way passports). The deal was simple: immunity for commies and power for their informants. So nothing bad could happen to the commies and never will. <BR/><BR/>Kaczynskis are trying to blow up that deal, however they are acting in a completely bad way and will achieve nothing (besides antagonizing everyone). And BR is right on one thing - they have no understanding of democracy. <BR/><BR/><I>I will suggest you look at how France handled things after WW2 i.e. lots of executions.</I><BR/><BR/>France executed <I>active collaborators</I>, i.e. regime officials. The files of <I>snitches</I> (which is what we are talking about here) remain classified to this day. The reason for that is very simple: no state, democratic or otherwise, can function without secret police and its snitches, so their protection is viewed as paramount. <BR/><BR/>What we have in Poland is a direct opposite: the regime officials are untouchable and Kaczynskis are after the unimportant snitches. <BR/><BR/>@anonymous:<BR/><BR/><I>Gazeta is undoubtedly the best newspaper in this part of Europe but still they really are unbelievably arrogant….</I><BR/><BR/>Gaaaahh... The Round Table deal designated Michnik and his newspaper as the chief moral authority in the country; thus their arrogance. In fact, it can be argued, that most of Polish journalists exhibit sectarian groupthink with Michnik as their guru. And "Dziennik" was created with the specific goal of countering the dominance Michnik's school of thought in this country. So what you are seeing now is a propaganda war between the pro-Michnik and anti-Michnik camps. <BR/><BR/>And by the way, I'd like you to enumerate the allegedly "fascist" ideas spread by "Dziennik" and "Rzeczpospolita". <BR/><BR/>(Michnik's role and the nature of the Round Table deal have been extensively documented by Waldemar Łysiak in "Salon" and Rafał A. Ziemkiewicz in "Michnikowszczyzna". Also Kiszczak's memoirs "Generał Kiszczak mówi" provide an interesting view into the details of the transition process; the book is worth having alone for the photos of the Solidarity leadership drinking vodka with the commies).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-4392381089962426642007-03-11T19:05:00.000+01:002007-03-11T19:05:00.000+01:00Jan + one waz to stagger into a democracz is for t...Jan + one waz to stagger into a democracz is for the entire private media to resist this, en masse...and teach our outdated old fools a lesson on democracz.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.com