tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post1817602580096723247..comments2024-03-13T03:13:59.610+01:00Comments on the beatroot: Yes but, no butbeatroothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-23174959818921383042007-02-21T13:22:00.000+01:002007-02-21T13:22:00.000+01:00check out this outPOLISH President Lech Kaczynski ...check out this out<BR/><BR/>POLISH President Lech Kaczynski was last night described as ignorant and a disgrace to Europe after he suggested that widespread homosexuality would lead to the disappearance of the human race. <BR/><BR/>He made his remarks just hours before Justice Minister Michael McDowell said in a key Dail debate that Ireland cherished gay people as "equal citizens". <BR/><BR/>Speaking in Dublin yesterday on the last day of a three-day state visit, the Polish president shocked a large audience by saying "homosexual culture" and sexual orientation should not be promoted as an alternative. <BR/><BR/>His comments were condemned by gay-rights groups and politicians as "shocking", "inflammatory" and "ignorant". <BR/><BR/>After launching his tirade against gay culture, the president was treated to lunch by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and a civic reception hosted by Dublin Lord Mayor Vincent Jackson. <BR/><BR/>Cllr Jackson said he and Mr Ahern had been unaware of the president's comments but that Mr Kaczynski's views were from a "a bygone age". <BR/><BR/>Speaking at a Forum of Europe meeting in Dublin Castle, Mr Kaczynski, who flew home last night, was asked during a question and answer session about his attitudes to gay people. <BR/><BR/>To audible gasps, Mr Kaczynski said: "If that kind of approach to sexual life were to be promoted on a grand scale, the human race would disappear. <BR/><BR/>"Imagine what grand changes would occur in mores if the traditional links between men and women were set aside." <BR/><BR/>Nonsense <BR/><BR/>He was responding to Sinn Fein councillor Daithi Doolan who criticised Mr Kaczynski's decision to ban a gay march in Warsaw when he was mayor of the Polish capital in 2004. <BR/><BR/>Senator David Norris, who says he has been attacked by homophobic Poles here, said the president was a disgrace to the European Community. <BR/><BR/>"It is certainly completely inappropriate for the president of a friendly state to promote his own ignorance at the expense of Irish citizens who have fought very hard to establish their human and civil rights. <BR/><BR/>"His nonsense about the threat posed by homosexuality has shown his very limited intelligence and was a betrayal of decent Polish people." <BR/><BR/>President Kaczynski was grilled about his attitudes to gay people during the question and answer session at the Forum on Europe. <BR/><BR/>He stood over his decision to ban a gay rights march from Warsaw while mayor of the city in 2004 and rejected allegations that he was homophobic. <BR/><BR/>"Among my personal friends there are individuals affected by this different sexual orientation, or homosexuality, but they enjoy full rights, they are able to move forward in various spheres of life [in Poland]. <BR/><BR/>"This is a tendency, an orientation that has always existed, I don't know why. I do not intend to combat it, to force them into therapy. But at the same time, I don't think it's appropriate that they should promote their sexual orientation." <BR/><BR/>The Gay, Lesbian and Equality Network (GLEN) said it was concerned about the "inflammatory" remarks. "There are huge risks to gay people around the world. <BR/><BR/>"Any kind of inflammatory language is dangerous and upsetting and needs to be monitored very carefully," said its chief executive Keith O'Malley. <BR/><BR/>Labour party senator Mary Henry said the president's argument was bizarre. <BR/><BR/>She said she had been shocked by his remarks. "I think his argument that it (homosexuality) would be the end of human kind was really bizarre." <BR/><BR/>"He kept on saying that the Poles and us were so alike. I'm not so sure about that." <BR/><BR/>It had been a good thing for people to hear with their own ears the president's "unbelievable views", she added. <BR/><BR/>Dublin's Lord Mayor Jackson said that while he and Mr Ahern had not been aware of the views expressed by President Kaczynski, he strongly rejected them. <BR/><BR/>"Those beliefs are of a bygone age. If you don't have a belief that all sections of society have a right to co-exist, you will have intolerance and xenophobia. That would be a tragedy for Poland, which has gone through so much with occupation from neighbours on both sides." <BR/><BR/>A spokesman for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Minister Michael McDowell said he would not be making any comment on the President's remarks. The Polish embassy in Dublin did not return a call seeking comment. <BR/><BR/>An idealist, a homophobe and a Eurosceptic <BR/>LECH Kaczynski has been praised for his campaign against corruption in Poland but criticised for almost everything else. <BR/><BR/>Since taking over as president in December 2005, the 57-year-old has set himself a task of promoting traditional family values and demoting those who collaborated with the old communist regime. <BR/><BR/>He and his identical twin brother Jaroslaw, who is Polish Prime Minister, have succeeded in closing down the country's lawless military intelligence service. <BR/><BR/>But while the twins' anti-corruption drive has attracted international praise, their attitude to the EU has become an embarrassment. <BR/><BR/>There have been a series of gaffes, such as President Kaczynski's withdrawal last year from a trilateral summit with France and Germany after a satirical article in a minor German daily newspaper. <BR/><BR/>The Kaczynskis seem to distrust all foreigners except Americans, and have reduced relations with Germany to a level of icy puzzlement unknown in Poland's recent history. <BR/><BR/>President Kaczynski tried to play this down yesterday. He said that Poland's opposition to the draft EU constitutional treaty was due to the country's troubled 20th century history, when it spent five years under German control and then more than 50 years under Russian influence. <BR/><BR/>His views on homosexuality will not cause surprise in Poland. But there are many who wish he had confined his comments to usual platitudes about the Irish economy and Polish-Irish relations. <BR/><BR/>Michael Brennan and Ciaran ByrneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-51789681277242396282007-02-13T18:49:00.000+01:002007-02-13T18:49:00.000+01:00David Bowie! How does the song go? Oh, yeah...Ch-c...David Bowie! <BR/><BR/>How does the song go? Oh, yeah...<BR/><BR/>Ch-ch-ch-ch changes face the strain<BR/>Ch-ch-ch changes<BR/><BR/>Time can change me,<BR/>But I can't trace time...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-60803996011103000462007-02-13T10:53:00.000+01:002007-02-13T10:53:00.000+01:00Are you crazy?? Poles love change. They change the...Are you crazy?? Poles <I>love</I> change. They change their laws all the time. They reform this, then they reform it back again, then they reform that and then they reform the other.... It's a wild, wild roller-coaster ride and if you have a friend in the ministry responsible for the latest overhaul you can cash in big.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-22677262109411074202007-02-12T22:49:00.000+01:002007-02-12T22:49:00.000+01:00Believe it or not, Poles are the most mobile natio...Believe it or not, Poles are the most mobile nation in the EU. Because there is no more dramatic change than uprooting oneself from one's homeland and moving abroad, the claims that 'Poles hate change' and 'Poles show high levels of uncertainty avoidance' (whatever it is) seem far fetched no matter how you slice it. Besides, the question should be rephrased as ‘do Poles hate change?’. The ‘why Poles hate change?’ question assumes way too much a priori and leads the readers astray. Tomek’s and Kasia’s dislike of any changes should not be extrapolated to encompass 38 million people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-2166189064425959272007-02-10T20:40:00.000+01:002007-02-10T20:40:00.000+01:00:-))):-)))beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-9511892039268404182007-02-10T19:28:00.000+01:002007-02-10T19:28:00.000+01:00Nah, Beatroot.You'd end up between two stools.Nah, Beatroot.<BR/><BR/>You'd end up between two stools.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11219870920638914624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-7209155804193686222007-02-10T16:54:00.000+01:002007-02-10T16:54:00.000+01:00CBs will manage to brainwash and/or buy out enuff ...<I>CBs will manage to brainwash and/or buy out enuff of the wc to fart over (????) the rest. </I><BR/><BR/>maybe we should exappropriate their farts?...on second thoughts...<BR/><BR/>...unless one is a fartophiliac...beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-67958758915919026862007-02-10T15:53:00.000+01:002007-02-10T15:53:00.000+01:00BR wrote: And that takes a positive attitude to ch...BR wrote: And that takes a positive attitude to change to do that…<BR/><BR/>--> I dunno, there's always sabotage. Is that positive?<BR/><BR/>I like the idea of workers expropriating while running with change in their (our) own best interests. But as always and everywhere, the CBs will manage to brainwash and/or buy out enuff of the wc to fart over (????) the rest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-15426628362876628512007-02-10T15:50:00.000+01:002007-02-10T15:50:00.000+01:00ok, I come late to this thread.....but, here is my...ok, I come late to this thread.....but, here is my take, for what its worth.<BR/><BR/>Poles seem very reluctant to change....passive about a lot of things actually. One of my first impressions here was the endless sigh, and shrug, and "nie wiem". Its a national symbol. I dont blame this on communism, because other former communist countries are not at all reluctant to change.<BR/><BR/>I think poles rank low on self esteem and, ergo, are very defensive. A recent Time or Newsweek piece asked why Poles are so angry? One part of the analysis was that they believe their own cultural stereotypes. Its strange, given the achievments of Poles and Poland over the years...but today's population seems highly passive and defensive and as michael says, given to uncertainty avoidance.<BR/><BR/>Also, I do think the Polish catholic church is a big part of this. Spain had Franco....and yet doesnt seem to suffer the same level of xenophobia and reactionary thinking. Something about the rigidity of the polish church would seem part of the problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-89536047381715799322007-02-10T15:33:00.000+01:002007-02-10T15:33:00.000+01:00We'll I strongly disagree with your South American...We'll I strongly disagree with your South American comment. You can industrialize and urbanize without communist coercion after all. And again, while far behind NW Europe regarding industrialization, we were a more industrialized country then the Southern European ones pre-WW2 (Northern Italy Excluded) and they wound up ok, far better then any Latin American country for which they surely have more cultural/structural affinities then Poland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-62854689947929070542007-02-10T12:45:00.000+01:002007-02-10T12:45:00.000+01:00People were asked what they thought about somethin...<I>People were asked what they thought about something, and there was silence.</I><BR/><BR/>Because everyone thought it was a stupid idea, but was hesistant to say it, because that could cost them a job. <BR/><BR/>Or, everyone thought it was a good idea, but was afraid of making a sycophant of himself in front of all the colleagues. <BR/><BR/>Besides, why is the manager asking them to do his job? He is paid for this, damnit!<BR/><BR/><I>I really doubt a non-communist Poland would have developed to be like Italy.</I><BR/><BR/>In 1945 Poland was a ruined country with economy based on agriculture. It has taken a massive leap in the early yeras of the communism, becoming an industrialized and urbanized nation. It was only possible because the communists didn't look at the costs and were pushing towards the indutrialized society. <BR/><BR/>The reason why Poland today is behind Spain is that, first, the communism has run out of steam and stagnated in 1970s, and second, the reforms of the early 1990s caused great losses to the economy, effectively setting us back a couple of years (e.g. the GDP of Poland reached its 1989 value in 1997). <BR/><BR/>Still without the communism, today Poland would look like numerous South American republics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-75338460241998413662007-02-10T11:00:00.000+01:002007-02-10T11:00:00.000+01:00I personally cringe at workplace change because mo...<I>I personally cringe at workplace change because more often than not it is a harbinger of layoffs and other smackdowns by new shitass (or cunty bollock if you will) bosses.</I><BR/><BR/>yep, the cunty bollocks are alive and well here too. Geez. And Poles are sick to death of layoffs too. And there is two ways you can confront this process – stand away from it, retreat, hide under the table and hope it all goes away – or you can try and hijack the process and try to affect it. And that takes a positive attitude to change to do that…if the cunty bollocks want change then that’s what they are gonna get…beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-11636799308174130982007-02-10T02:36:00.000+01:002007-02-10T02:36:00.000+01:00Mike wrote, "I really doubt a non-communist Poland...Mike wrote, "I really doubt a non-communist Poland would have developed to be like Italy"<BR/><BR/>As it stands Spain, a country that was poorer then Poland prior to communism, will likely overtake stagnant Italy in economic terms within the next 2-3 years. If Spain can do it why not Poland?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-1633313717477104012007-02-09T23:41:00.000+01:002007-02-09T23:41:00.000+01:00Seems that the Polish Church hierarchy may turn ou...Seems that the Polish Church hierarchy may turn out to be it's own worst enemy, hastening the demise of it's secular influence on the faithful.<BR/><BR/>And I don't think that increasing prosperity is so much the key variable as increasing consumerist ethos. <BR/><BR/>As far as resistence to change is concerned, I see a lot of that in the US no matter how sociologists comparatively rate and measure it. I know I personally cringe at workplace change because more often than not it is a harbinger of layoffs and other smackdowns by new shitass (or cunty bollock if you will) bosses. Either that or new ideas that are replaced by equally bullshit new ideas in short order.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-43695743908195306302007-02-09T23:35:00.000+01:002007-02-09T23:35:00.000+01:00I really doubt a non-communist Poland would have d...<I> I really doubt a non-communist Poland would have developed to be like Italy.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. But it would have developed. <BR/><BR/>I know that this is the ‘secularization thesis’ but it’s generally correct: the more a country develops – economy, division of labour, wealth, religion, and hierarchy seems not so important.<BR/><BR/>Poland is still, in parts, a deeply traditional society. Hence traditional views. It would not be so backward – sorry to use that word but I am not a relativist – ifbeatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-35921035103430213572007-02-09T23:13:00.000+01:002007-02-09T23:13:00.000+01:00I didn't mean Catholocism as religion, I mean the ...I didn't mean Catholocism as religion, I mean the Catholic church as a hierarchical, rule-oriented institution(in which some rules can be bent).<BR/>And note I wrote 'if there's a single variable associated with ('cause' is too strong a word)'.<BR/>Upon further reflection I might reword that as "among the many variables that can associated with the development of these features, one of the strongest is catholocism (the church as an institution and not as a religion per se)."<BR/><BR/>Italy has some cultural features in common with Poland and some big differences. I really doubt a non-communist Poland would have developed to be like Italy.<BR/><BR/>Poland is mostly secular with a moderate religious population (by world standards, which works out to 'very religious' by european standards and 'not so religious' by US standards).<BR/>Italy and Spain haven't 'secularized' - their native populations have mostly lost their collective faith in any form of religion.<BR/><BR/>Increasing prosperity may or may not weaken the church in Poland. Historically the church has not sided with repressive governments against the population (as it did in Italy or Spain which helped to discredit it) so it may maintain its standing.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-63210153782106510642007-02-09T22:45:00.000+01:002007-02-09T22:45:00.000+01:00If there's any single variable that can be associa...<I>If there's any single variable that can be associated with these two cultural features ('cause' is too strong a word) historically it would be catholocism and not communism.</I><BR/><BR/>This where us westerners get things totally wrong, I think. <BR/><BR/>For that to be true then Polish culture would be like Italian. But Italy is very different from Poland. And if Poland had been allowed to develop as Italy has done (especially since the 1970s – or Spain since Franco) then it would not be as underdeveloped as it is now.<BR/><BR/>It’s not about religion – Poland would have secularized as Italy, Spain or Ireland has done if it were not for the fact that those countries did not have to suffer the madness of Stalinism as late as 1989….beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-64938954379287442932007-02-09T22:30:00.000+01:002007-02-09T22:30:00.000+01:00The top down thing is a separate issue, in the sam...The top down thing is a separate issue, in the same theoretical model of cultural comparison it's called 'power distance' and has to do with how hierarchical a culture is. Polish culture is not so hierarchical by world standards but is very hierarchical by european standards (it has the same rating as France, though the specifics will of course vary).<BR/><BR/>If there's any single variable that can be associated with these two cultural features ('cause' is too strong a word) historically it would be catholocism and not communism.<BR/>Communism distilled certain parts of Polish culture, strengthened one or two and weakened some more. It didn't really create anything and is pretty far down on my list of things that cause problems in modern Poland.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-72412368247351095572007-02-09T22:23:00.000+01:002007-02-09T22:23:00.000+01:00Poland has a high degree of uncertaany avoidance. ...<I>Poland has a high degree of uncertaany avoidance. For the record, there's nothing wrong with that</I>\<BR/><BR/>But that is where I totally disagree. I think that is very bad FOR POLES.<BR/><BR/>Poles – certainly in the state sector – have got used to being in an environment where change comes from the top down. They don’t feel part of that change, they don’t feel they are being consulted (which they aren’t) they are not being encouraged to take part in the form that change takes, they are not being invited to contribute to ideas to affect that change…they have been disempowered. <BR/><BR/>So when they are presented with a change they immediately think negatively. <BR/><BR/>I think that is profoundly bad management. Western management techniques (of trying to utilize the talent you have) are in most places a distant reality here….<BR/><BR/>Communism has bred a culture where people don not think they can be part of the changes that are rapidly happening here. <BR/><BR/>And that is extinguishing creative thought and initiative.<BR/><BR/>There is, Mike, something deeply disturbing about an ‘anti risk’ culture.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-60119450182608377312007-02-09T22:05:00.000+01:002007-02-09T22:05:00.000+01:00Maciek, I've known americans who thought the same ...Maciek, <BR/><BR/>I've known americans who thought the same thing about Poland after their first visit. Any foreign country is liable to seem more calm and idyllic than one's one for lots of reasons. The things that drive you crazy in your own culture aren't present (or less liable to drive you crazy because you can walk away at any time).<BR/><BR/>As for anonymous 4:39:<BR/>Real researchers who are experts in cultural comparisons say that Poland has a high degree of uncertainy avoidance. For the record, there's nothing wrong with that and no reason that that should change (even if it could be changed voluntarily) high uncertainty avoidance cultures have some definite strengths. They're generally very good at dealing better with real adversity and they have low overall levels of mental illness (for starters).<BR/><BR/>It is something that foreigners from low uncertainty avoidance cultures (like the UK and US) have to learn to deal with if they want to thrive in Poland.michael farrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-9111330536018803782007-02-09T20:23:00.000+01:002007-02-09T20:23:00.000+01:00As you probably know I am Pole.All I can say is th...As you probably know I am Pole.<BR/>All I can say is that 'martin' is right.<BR/><BR/>I am 32 y.o and I am already tired of this all. <BR/><BR/>To years ago I was visiting UK. I liked the way the life goes on there.... so slowly, everything is known and sometimes did not changed for ages. My mind desires the peace ('święty spokój') and order.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>Maciek<BR/>sp2qbnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-42601451127186281402007-02-09T16:57:00.000+01:002007-02-09T16:57:00.000+01:00OK. This is a serious issue, but fair comment as i...OK. This is a serious issue, but fair comment as it is a generalization. <BR/><BR/>But ask Poles and they say that Poles will find twenty reasons NOT to do something before they find one TO do something. <BR/><BR/>And I stick by the observation. People here – particularly in the state services – have got used to being told what to do – not contributing to the process of change that is going on around them. <BR/><BR/>It happened again this morning, in fact. People were asked what they thought about something, and there was silence.<BR/><BR/>One of the many reasons for this is the ‘top down’ management that they have got used to and something that stems back to communist times. Management techniques are antiquated, to say the least. <BR/><BR/>But I think that in a country that has seen so much tumultuous change, keeping things the same is often seen as the best option.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry you think that this is ex-pat griping, but I believe it to be true…and it was an observation I checked with a few people before I did it.beatroothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242716221133886807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-39603467773511231902007-02-09T16:39:00.000+01:002007-02-09T16:39:00.000+01:00This blog entry smells of traditional UK expat sen...This blog entry smells of traditional UK expat sentiment as is not up to the usual standard of the site. And then someone has instantly chipped in with some pseudoscientific backing-as if that made it fact!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-56783970805307329222007-02-09T15:57:00.000+01:002007-02-09T15:57:00.000+01:00Michael Farris' 1st Comment is truly hilarious...I...Michael Farris' 1st Comment is truly hilarious...I can just imagine a Polish "Vicky" doing something like that. Great post!!!luridtraversalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18008562696977926817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13112593.post-54078273667743663722007-02-09T14:38:00.000+01:002007-02-09T14:38:00.000+01:00And I always thought Brits were sober-minded and o...And I always thought Brits were sober-minded and overly conscious of decorum. Civility and all that, wot?<BR/><BR/>It's hard for me to accept changing stereotypes.<BR/><BR/>Also, I didn't know about you Britz putting paintball right up there with yer darting penchant (I read paintballing is part of the itinerary for the Brit staggerers in K-kow). <BR/><BR/>Also, I asked it in the Sikorski thread below, but where does fart come in vis-a-vis a translation of plastus? I also noted that I found out that Plastus was a pudgy little modeling plastic clay character who lived in a pencil box in a Polish childrens' book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com